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This is from Paul.

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"How do you feel about the idea

3
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of Christophanies in the Old Testament?"

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Anybody know what a Christophany is?

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(from the room)

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It's the manifestation of Christ.

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Tim: A manifestation of Christ

8
00:00:29,576 --> 00:00:34,907
in the Old Testament.

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"How do you feel about the 
idea of Christophanies

10
00:00:37,411 --> 00:00:39,926
in the Old Testament?

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The Angel of the Lord visits

12
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where worship is even received,

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or wrestling with Jacob, etc.

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If these are biblically sound,

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is it a stretch to say

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that all theophanies..."

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Theophany, christophany.

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Christophany is a manifestation of Christ.

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Theo - God - a manifestation of God.

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So basically, what they're asking

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is it right to think that 
in the Old Testament

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every time God manifested Himself

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that it is the pre-incarnate Jesus.

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"We know He is the image

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of the invisible Father,

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and that no one can see God.

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So would the whirlwind in Job,

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the burning bush,

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or the glory that Moses saw on Mt. Sinai

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really be the Son as 
opposed to the Father?

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I feel it is generally 
taught as God generally,

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which in an Old Testament context

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alludes to the Father.

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Thank you."

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Now, as I've said before,

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just because somebody asks the question

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a certain way doesn't mean

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that we simply receive it.

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Because he made a statement

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right at the end

41
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that I would say,

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well, wait, he just made an assumption

43
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that isn't true.

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He says, "I feel it is generally taught

45
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as God generally,

46
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which in an Old Testament context

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alludes to the Father."

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So he's basically saying that 
in the Old Testament

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when God is alluded to

50
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it is generally the Father.

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Well, he's making that assumption,

52
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but he really doesn't 
say anything to prove it.

53
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So you see what his point is.

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He's saying, really, 
his preconceived ideas,

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presuppositions about 
the Old Testament is this:

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he thinks that in the Old Testament

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when God is mentioned,

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it usually is referring to the Father.

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So if that's the case,

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when God is said to appear

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or manifest somewhere,

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why would we jump to the 
conclusion that it's Christ?

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Is it Christ?

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That seems to be the 
tension that he feels.

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Is it Christ? Well, perhaps 
it could be Christ.

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But usually when God's spoken about 
in the Old Testament it's the Father,

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so how can I know that it's Christ

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over against the Father?

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And he does actually talk about

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the fact that the Father is invisible

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and that Christ is the representative

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of the invisible Father. He's the image.

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Let me just say this

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calling into question what he says.

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You know, he says that his assumption is

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that when God is being spoken about

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that it's typically the Father.

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Well, is it?

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I guess that's the question.

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He assumes it, but is that the reality?

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I mean, just think with me here.

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How does the Old Testament start?

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"In the beginning, God created 
the heaven and the earth."

84
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Okay, how does John 1 start?

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"In the beginning was the Word,

86
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and the Word was with God,

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and the Word was God."

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In the beginning, the Word was with God.

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Is that how verse 2 goes?

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Verse 3 - what does verse three say?

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Do you have it there?

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"All things were made through Him,

93
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and without Him was not anything made

94
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that was made."

95
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Okay, so then we find out Christ is God

96
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and everything was made by Him.

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So when you go back to the Old Testament,

98
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even the way the Old Testament starts:

99
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"In the beginning, God created..."

100
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So let me ask you this,

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is the God in Genesis 1:1,

102
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is that specifically speaking 
of the Father or the Son?

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Yeah, it could be both.

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And there's another chapter 1:1

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that kind of comes into play here.

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Hebrews 1:1.

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Because what we find is

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that God created all 
things through Christ.

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So yes, it could be either one.

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But okay, let's ask this.

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In Genesis... 3:8 comes to my mind.

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Yes, God was walking in the garden

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in the cool of the day.

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So let me ask you this:

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Is that the Father or is that Christ?

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Or it could be either?

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God is walking in the garden

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in the cool of the day.

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Which is it?

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Or is that uncertain?

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(from the room)

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John says in John 1,

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no one has ever seen God the Father,

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but the only God who is at His side

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has made Him known.

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Tim: Yeah, that would be one. John 1:18.

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You have 1:18 right there?

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Somebody have John 1:18?

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I think we should read that.

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John 1:18 and somebody else can look up

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John 6:46 because they give us

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some similar thoughts.

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"No one has ever seen God.

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The only God..."

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Tim: Okay, nobody has ever seen God.

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The only God... but if you 
just stop right there,

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it's like, well, wait a second.

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Isn't Jesus God? Haven't people seen Him?

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Keep going.

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"...Who is at the Father's side,

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He has made Him known."

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Tim: God is at the Father's side.

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He makes the Father known.

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Read the whole text again.

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"No one has ever seen God.

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The only God

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Who is at the Father's side,

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He has made Him known."

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Tim: Isn't that interesting?

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Nobody has ever seen God,

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but the only God

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Who is at His right side - is at His side,

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He has made Him known.

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He declares Him.

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Somebody have John 6:46?

156
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"No one has seen the Father

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except the One Who is from God;

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only He has seen the Father."

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Tim: Okay, if we take those two realities

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and we go apply it to Genesis 3:8,

161
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what's the conclusion?

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The pre-incarnate Jesus.

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Does God the Father ever 
take on human form?

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We're never told that.

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In fact, what we're told is

166
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nobody has ever seen Him.

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What we're told is that 
the Father is invisible.

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Colossians 1:15 specifically says that.

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Invisible God.

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Christ declares Him.

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Christ is the express image of Him.

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1 Timothy 6:16 says the same truth.

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No one has ever seen Him.

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And so what you have in Genesis 3:8

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when you have God coming and walking

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in the garden,

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it's got to be Christ.

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It's got to be a pre-incarnate -

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the incarnation is Him 
coming into the earth

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being born of the virgin Mary -

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before that.

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Can we prove this any other way?

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00:09:29,408 --> 00:09:30,443
(from the room)

184
00:09:30,443 --> 00:09:33,624
I think a significant text is John 12:41.

185
00:09:33,624 --> 00:09:35,691
Tim: John 12:41.

186
00:09:35,691 --> 00:09:40,074
Now, John 12:41 - you 
might want to look at it -

187
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v. 41 and 42.

188
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It is questionable.

189
00:09:45,328 --> 00:09:49,584
The reason it's questionable is this:

190
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John quotes from Isaiah 53

191
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and then he quotes from Isaiah 6.

192
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And then John says

193
00:10:02,350 --> 00:10:08,340
that Isaiah saw Christ's glory.

194
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What does he mean?

195
00:10:09,772 --> 00:10:14,431
Does he mean that Isaiah 6:1,

196
00:10:14,431 --> 00:10:17,712
He saw also the Lord high and lifted up

197
00:10:17,712 --> 00:10:20,948
and sitting on this throne.

198
00:10:20,948 --> 00:10:26,616
Does he mean that he saw His glory there?

199
00:10:26,616 --> 00:10:31,084
Isaiah saw the glory of Christ there?

200
00:10:31,084 --> 00:10:34,005
Or does he mean that he saw prophetically

201
00:10:34,005 --> 00:10:36,697
the glory of Christ

202
00:10:36,697 --> 00:10:41,542
as demonstrated in Isaiah 53

203
00:10:41,542 --> 00:10:47,051
where you have the glories of the cross?

204
00:10:47,051 --> 00:10:52,870
The last thing quoted is Isaiah 6.

205
00:10:52,870 --> 00:10:54,661
If you go back to Isaiah 6,

206
00:10:54,661 --> 00:10:57,434
and you can go back there,

207
00:10:57,434 --> 00:11:00,872
you'll see Isaiah entered the temple.

208
00:11:00,872 --> 00:11:04,246
In the year King Uzziah died,

209
00:11:04,246 --> 00:11:11,384
I saw also the Lord, high and lifted up."

210
00:11:11,384 --> 00:11:16,234
And the last quote there before John says

211
00:11:16,234 --> 00:11:19,351
that Isaiah saw Christ's glory

212
00:11:19,351 --> 00:11:21,246
is right there from Isaiah 6,

213
00:11:21,246 --> 00:11:25,473
so it may very well be.

214
00:11:25,473 --> 00:11:29,450
Let me tell you something else.

215
00:11:29,450 --> 00:11:35,120
When Israel was in the wilderness

216
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:45,147
and you had this pillar of fire and smoke,

217
00:11:45,147 --> 00:11:50,347
the reality is that Paul looking at that,

218
00:11:50,347 --> 00:11:52,535
in 1 Corinthians 10,

219
00:11:52,535 --> 00:11:55,094
says that Rock that followed them

220
00:11:55,094 --> 00:11:57,771
was Christ.

221
00:11:57,771 --> 00:11:59,215
Now, I know we're not getting

222
00:11:59,215 --> 00:12:01,834
necessarily human form there,

223
00:12:01,834 --> 00:12:04,339
but he's going back to the Old Testament

224
00:12:04,339 --> 00:12:07,327
and he's saying when God was

225
00:12:07,327 --> 00:12:09,955
following Israel through that wilderness,

226
00:12:09,955 --> 00:12:14,015
that Rock that followed them was Christ.

227
00:12:14,015 --> 00:12:17,053
How about something else?

228
00:12:17,053 --> 00:12:19,164
I think we have to keep coming back

229
00:12:19,164 --> 00:12:21,635
to the reality that Jesus said

230
00:12:21,635 --> 00:12:26,107
no one has seen the Father.

231
00:12:26,107 --> 00:12:27,811
So when you go back to the Old Testament

232
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you say, well, wait a second,

233
00:12:30,547 --> 00:12:36,168
Manoah - the father of Samson -

234
00:12:36,168 --> 00:12:39,153
just maybe go back there.

235
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Go back to Judges.

236
00:12:47,829 --> 00:12:56,981
If you go back to Judges 13,

237
00:12:56,981 --> 00:12:58,689
you remember what happened first -

238
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Manoah's wife - I think 
it's very interesting

239
00:13:01,015 --> 00:13:03,814
that Manoah's wife 
is actually the first one

240
00:13:03,814 --> 00:13:08,888
that has this revelation,

241
00:13:08,888 --> 00:13:12,419
and yet her name is never mentioned.

242
00:13:12,419 --> 00:13:15,796
It's just Manoah's wife.

243
00:13:15,796 --> 00:13:18,278
But if you look there in Judges 13:21,

244
00:13:18,278 --> 00:13:22,185
you'll see that they specifically

245
00:13:22,185 --> 00:13:27,124
had an encounter with 
the Angel of the Lord.

246
00:13:27,124 --> 00:13:33,804
And when you go to verse 22,
what does Manoah say?

247
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We have seen God.

248
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Okay, put this together with Joshua.

249
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Back up a book.

250
00:13:43,113 --> 00:13:45,487
Go back to Joshua 5.

251
00:13:45,487 --> 00:13:46,682
You remember this.

252
00:13:46,682 --> 00:13:48,435
Joshua getting ready to lead

253
00:13:48,435 --> 00:13:51,117
the hosts of Israel

254
00:13:51,117 --> 00:13:52,581
into the Promised Land,

255
00:13:52,581 --> 00:13:55,370
defeat all these nations,

256
00:13:55,370 --> 00:13:57,907
and there as he's preparing to go in,

257
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he's met by? Joshua 5:13.

258
00:14:02,274 --> 00:14:04,817
What does Joshua 5:13 say?

259
00:14:04,817 --> 00:14:07,512
Who is he met by?

260
00:14:07,512 --> 00:14:09,713
A man.

261
00:14:09,713 --> 00:14:13,569
Now grasp that - a man.

262
00:14:13,569 --> 00:14:15,479
But then keep reading.

263
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Somebody read it out loud.

264
00:14:17,289 --> 00:14:19,127
"When Joshua was by Jericho,

265
00:14:19,127 --> 00:14:20,706
he lifted up his eyes and looked,

266
00:14:20,706 --> 00:14:22,699
and behold, a man was standing before him

267
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with his drawn sword in his hand.

268
00:14:24,324 --> 00:14:26,202
And Joshua went to him and said to him,

269
00:14:26,202 --> 00:14:30,314
'Are you for us, or for our adversaries?'

270
00:14:30,314 --> 00:14:31,762
(Tim: Keep going.)

271
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And he said, 'No; but I am the commander

272
00:14:33,776 --> 00:14:35,033
of the army of the Lord.'"

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00:14:35,033 --> 00:14:36,955
Tim: Okay, "commander 
of the army of the Lord."

274
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So we have a man

275
00:14:38,210 --> 00:14:40,923
and he's the commander 
of the army of the Lord.

276
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Now, keep reading.

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"'Now I have come.

278
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And Joshua fell on his face to the earth

279
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and worshiped and said to him,

280
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'What does my lord say to his servant?'"

281
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Tim: It says Joshua fell on his face

282
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and he worshiped.

283
00:14:56,067 --> 00:14:57,439
And you know what?

284
00:14:57,439 --> 00:14:59,314
This Commander of the Lord of Hosts

285
00:14:59,314 --> 00:15:01,657
does not stop him.

286
00:15:01,657 --> 00:15:02,997
Now if you know your Bibles,

287
00:15:02,997 --> 00:15:06,056
you know in the book of Revelation,

288
00:15:06,056 --> 00:15:08,915
when the man John fell down

289
00:15:08,915 --> 00:15:12,426
to worship an angel - two occasions -

290
00:15:12,426 --> 00:15:15,201
he was stopped dead in his tracks.

291
00:15:15,201 --> 00:15:17,452
Why? Because that's not appropriate

292
00:15:17,452 --> 00:15:24,267
to offer worship to an angel.

293
00:15:24,267 --> 00:15:26,736
So what happens?

294
00:15:26,736 --> 00:15:30,140
Joshua falls down and worships.

295
00:15:30,140 --> 00:15:32,387
And not only that,

296
00:15:32,387 --> 00:15:33,920
we get the same kind of verbiage

297
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,976
that comes from the bush 
that burned with fire

298
00:15:36,976 --> 00:15:39,772
there on Sinai.

299
00:15:39,772 --> 00:15:41,613
This Angel of the Lord -

300
00:15:41,613 --> 00:15:47,411
well, if you keep reading.

301
00:15:47,411 --> 00:15:48,529
Keep reading. He says,

302
00:15:48,529 --> 00:15:52,337
"take off the sandals."

303
00:15:52,337 --> 00:15:55,477
It's holy ground.

304
00:15:55,477 --> 00:15:58,747
And so, let's back up even further.

305
00:15:58,747 --> 00:16:05,066
Let's think about Jacob wrestling

306
00:16:05,066 --> 00:16:08,447
before his encounter with Esau.

307
00:16:08,447 --> 00:16:11,094
Because you get the same 
kind of thing again.

308
00:16:11,094 --> 00:16:15,743
If you go to Genesis 18 -

309
00:16:15,743 --> 00:16:25,750
no, not Genesis 18, Genesis 32.

310
00:16:25,750 --> 00:16:29,277
Genesis 32:24.

311
00:16:29,277 --> 00:16:31,530
You get the same kind of verbiage again

312
00:16:31,530 --> 00:16:34,587
that we saw with Manoah.

313
00:16:34,587 --> 00:16:39,452
First, a man wrestled with him.

314
00:16:39,452 --> 00:16:43,533
In 32:30, Jacob says,

315
00:16:43,533 --> 00:16:48,253
"I have seen God face to face."

316
00:16:48,253 --> 00:16:51,668
Now, go all the way back to the prophets,

317
00:16:51,668 --> 00:16:54,231
to Hosea 12.

318
00:16:54,231 --> 00:16:56,998
Because this account is reiterated for us

319
00:16:56,998 --> 00:16:59,316
by the prophet and he adds

320
00:16:59,316 --> 00:17:03,241
an interesting title to the mix.

321
00:17:03,241 --> 00:17:17,107
Hosea 12:3-4.

322
00:17:17,107 --> 00:17:19,269
Somebody read that out 
loud if you get there.

323
00:17:19,269 --> 00:17:22,031
"In the womb he took 
his brother by the heel,

324
00:17:22,031 --> 00:17:25,204
and in his manhood he strove with God.

325
00:17:25,204 --> 00:17:27,952
He strove with the angel and prevailed;

326
00:17:27,952 --> 00:17:30,253
he wept and sought his favor.

327
00:17:30,253 --> 00:17:32,356
He met God at Bethel,

328
00:17:32,356 --> 00:17:34,554
and there God spoke with us..."

329
00:17:34,554 --> 00:17:38,591
Tim: You hear he strove with God.

330
00:17:38,591 --> 00:17:41,709
He strove with the Angel.

331
00:17:41,709 --> 00:17:47,935
When you look at Genesis 32, it's a man.

332
00:17:47,935 --> 00:17:49,409
When you start talking about

333
00:17:49,409 --> 00:17:51,387
somebody who's a man,

334
00:17:51,387 --> 00:17:54,045
who's God, who's the Angel,

335
00:17:54,045 --> 00:18:02,330
who's the Commander of the Lord's armies,

336
00:18:02,330 --> 00:18:04,011
you begin to see a picture.

337
00:18:04,011 --> 00:18:05,927
I mentioned Genesis 18.

338
00:18:05,927 --> 00:18:08,118
That's Abraham. And you remember him.

339
00:18:08,118 --> 00:18:11,460
One day, three men came,

340
00:18:11,460 --> 00:18:13,745
and one of them is specifically

341
00:18:13,745 --> 00:18:16,018
called the Lord.

342
00:18:16,018 --> 00:18:20,586
Three men, but one is 
specifically called the Lord.

343
00:18:20,586 --> 00:18:24,707
No one has ever seen the Father.

344
00:18:24,707 --> 00:18:26,733
Abraham called Him Lord.

345
00:18:26,733 --> 00:18:29,788
If you look at the terminology there,

346
00:18:29,788 --> 00:18:33,268
it's obviously God.

347
00:18:33,268 --> 00:18:35,800
I mean, this is what we're confronted with

348
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:37,610
in the Old Testament.

349
00:18:37,610 --> 00:18:42,873
We're confronted by what?

350
00:18:42,873 --> 00:18:45,763
I'll tell you what I believe 
we're confronted with.

351
00:18:45,763 --> 00:18:47,680
We're confronted by an Old Testament

352
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,344
that is full of Christ.

353
00:18:51,344 --> 00:18:53,050
He is there

354
00:18:53,050 --> 00:18:54,451
and He is moving

355
00:18:54,451 --> 00:18:56,244
and He is active

356
00:18:56,244 --> 00:18:59,050
and He is very much involved.

357
00:18:59,050 --> 00:19:00,590
Now, the people didn't know.

358
00:19:00,590 --> 00:19:02,718
You had the Old Testament Scriptures -

359
00:19:02,718 --> 00:19:05,700
well, it's a man; it's the Lord.

360
00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:07,794
I mean, what did they do with that?

361
00:19:07,794 --> 00:19:10,383
They've got this idea of one God,

362
00:19:10,383 --> 00:19:13,515
and yet He's coming as a man -

363
00:19:13,515 --> 00:19:16,816
they knew that. They saw that.

364
00:19:16,816 --> 00:19:21,084
Or did they just say, 
well, it was an angel?

365
00:19:21,084 --> 00:19:24,244
It was an angel representing God

366
00:19:24,244 --> 00:19:30,144
so it's appropriate to credit him

367
00:19:30,144 --> 00:19:32,266
as speaking for God?

368
00:19:32,266 --> 00:19:33,986
And sometimes they just kind of

369
00:19:33,986 --> 00:19:37,728
intermixed the language?

370
00:19:37,728 --> 00:19:41,284
(incomplete thought)

371
00:19:41,284 --> 00:19:43,002
I don't believe that any time

372
00:19:43,002 --> 00:19:45,284
you actually see a manifestation

373
00:19:45,284 --> 00:19:48,190
of God as a man,

374
00:19:48,190 --> 00:19:50,137
that you're seeing the Father.

375
00:19:50,137 --> 00:19:53,523
Because Jesus could say to the people:

376
00:19:53,523 --> 00:20:01,040
He's invisible, and you've never seen Him.

377
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:05,714
So, I have one more.