1 00:00:00,313 --> 00:00:01,965 At the Fellowship Conference, 2 00:00:01,965 --> 00:00:04,084 I sat down with Justin Trevino, 3 00:00:04,084 --> 00:00:05,727 who years ago considered moving 4 00:00:05,727 --> 00:00:07,139 for a church, but instead, 5 00:00:07,139 --> 00:00:09,663 he remained in Las Cruces, New Mexico 6 00:00:09,663 --> 00:00:10,904 and planted a church. 7 00:00:10,904 --> 00:00:12,263 I wanted to hear from him 8 00:00:12,263 --> 00:00:14,175 about how the Lord brought this about 9 00:00:14,175 --> 00:00:16,134 in order to help others who are 10 00:00:16,134 --> 00:00:17,513 in a similar situation, 11 00:00:17,513 --> 00:00:19,456 and asking the question of, 12 00:00:19,456 --> 00:00:21,240 should I move for a church 13 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:22,640 or plant a church? 14 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:24,136 I started out by asking him 15 00:00:24,136 --> 00:00:25,336 to share his testimony 16 00:00:25,336 --> 00:00:27,327 of how the Lord saved him. 17 00:00:27,327 --> 00:00:29,199 Justin: I grew up in a Catholic home, 18 00:00:29,199 --> 00:00:30,244 very religious, 19 00:00:30,244 --> 00:00:34,354 very consistently going to church 20 00:00:34,354 --> 00:00:35,656 every Sunday. 21 00:00:35,656 --> 00:00:38,461 Actually, my great-aunt recalls 22 00:00:38,461 --> 00:00:41,177 taking me to church 23 00:00:41,177 --> 00:00:44,510 under the age of 5 - 24 00:00:44,510 --> 00:00:50,857 weekly mass in the neighborhood mission. 25 00:00:50,857 --> 00:00:53,534 And she says, "From an early age, 26 00:00:53,534 --> 00:00:55,309 you'd sit up in the very front row 27 00:00:55,309 --> 00:00:57,047 and watch that priest talk." 28 00:00:57,047 --> 00:00:58,423 I don't remember those days, 29 00:00:58,423 --> 00:01:01,266 but she says, "Yeah, you used to do that." 30 00:01:01,266 --> 00:01:03,300 I was always attracted to religion. 31 00:01:03,300 --> 00:01:05,573 I was attracted to God 32 00:01:05,573 --> 00:01:08,086 and spirituality and prayer 33 00:01:08,086 --> 00:01:11,249 and works and self-righteousness 34 00:01:11,249 --> 00:01:15,002 and earning and doing good in that respect. 35 00:01:15,002 --> 00:01:19,949 It wasn't until my junior year of high school 36 00:01:19,949 --> 00:01:23,032 when a long-time friend that I had 37 00:01:23,032 --> 00:01:25,667 played baseball with began to bring 38 00:01:25,667 --> 00:01:31,899 Bible verses on little pieces of paper to me. 39 00:01:31,899 --> 00:01:37,034 He'd say, "I'm not trying to change your religion or anything..." 40 00:01:37,034 --> 00:01:41,511 I know he was because he loves me. 41 00:01:41,511 --> 00:01:46,076 "...But here's a Scripture. 42 00:01:46,076 --> 00:01:47,747 That's the name of the book, 43 00:01:47,747 --> 00:01:50,717 that's the chapter and that's the verse." 44 00:01:50,717 --> 00:01:54,431 And so I'd take it and I'd say, 45 00:01:54,431 --> 00:01:55,704 "I'm not interested." 46 00:01:55,704 --> 00:01:58,280 But I would hold on to these little post-its 47 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,374 and I'd go home in my Catholic Bible 48 00:02:00,374 --> 00:02:03,462 and I'd open these things to those passages. 49 00:02:03,462 --> 00:02:08,185 And it was just slowly God cutting my heart 50 00:02:08,185 --> 00:02:10,571 each time, like, this is what you need. 51 00:02:10,571 --> 00:02:12,363 This is what you're lacking. 52 00:02:12,363 --> 00:02:16,680 This is what you're missing. 53 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,793 At the same time of that occurring, 54 00:02:19,793 --> 00:02:21,979 I was going through confirmation 55 00:02:21,979 --> 00:02:23,364 in the Catholic church, 56 00:02:23,364 --> 00:02:27,814 so I always equate it to 57 00:02:27,814 --> 00:02:30,766 when the hole in the wall 58 00:02:30,766 --> 00:02:32,207 in Ezekiel's day, 59 00:02:32,207 --> 00:02:33,849 when Ezekiel was commanded to look 60 00:02:33,849 --> 00:02:35,438 through that hole and to see the 61 00:02:35,438 --> 00:02:38,344 different sins going on within the priesthood 62 00:02:38,344 --> 00:02:40,891 and stuff like that. 63 00:02:40,891 --> 00:02:44,308 It was around that time where I began to see 64 00:02:44,308 --> 00:02:48,843 different holes within the Catholic teaching 65 00:02:48,843 --> 00:02:50,431 and the Catholic church, 66 00:02:50,431 --> 00:02:52,944 and the inconsistencies of those around me. 67 00:02:52,944 --> 00:02:54,645 You know, we're all going through 68 00:02:54,645 --> 00:02:56,202 confirmation together, 69 00:02:56,202 --> 00:02:58,846 but there's no desire for God 70 00:02:58,846 --> 00:03:01,306 amongst my friends. 71 00:03:01,306 --> 00:03:02,393 And I'm thinking, 72 00:03:02,393 --> 00:03:03,688 what's going on here? 73 00:03:03,688 --> 00:03:06,490 So, as we're all getting ready 74 00:03:06,490 --> 00:03:09,386 to finally go and confess our sins 75 00:03:09,386 --> 00:03:11,903 once and for all to the priest, 76 00:03:11,903 --> 00:03:15,148 I thought, from everything my friend 77 00:03:15,148 --> 00:03:16,474 is sharing with me, 78 00:03:16,474 --> 00:03:19,136 there's only one High Priest 79 00:03:19,136 --> 00:03:21,201 and that's Christ. 80 00:03:21,201 --> 00:03:24,160 So, as my heart's detaching 81 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,841 from a works-based righteousness, 82 00:03:26,841 --> 00:03:28,961 I realized through my friend 83 00:03:28,961 --> 00:03:31,165 that I was completely lost; 84 00:03:31,165 --> 00:03:33,212 completely headed to hell; 85 00:03:33,212 --> 00:03:36,223 in sin, not right with God. 86 00:03:36,223 --> 00:03:38,555 That Christ was the way, the truth, and the life 87 00:03:38,555 --> 00:03:41,597 and that no one was getting to the Father but through Him. 88 00:03:41,597 --> 00:03:48,681 And honestly, it wasn't an Acts 9 89 00:03:48,681 --> 00:03:50,612 experience for me. 90 00:03:50,612 --> 00:03:53,541 I think Kevin mentioned it 91 00:03:53,541 --> 00:03:55,689 a few Fellowship Conferences ago 92 00:03:55,689 --> 00:03:58,405 that the wind blows where He wishes 93 00:03:58,405 --> 00:04:00,101 and for some, it's a tornado, 94 00:04:00,101 --> 00:04:01,879 and for others, it's a gentle breeze. 95 00:04:01,879 --> 00:04:03,944 And for me it was a very gentle breeze. 96 00:04:03,944 --> 00:04:06,669 One minute, it was just: you're dead, 97 00:04:06,669 --> 00:04:09,452 and then you're alive. 98 00:04:09,452 --> 00:04:12,639 You're alive and Christ became precious. 99 00:04:12,639 --> 00:04:15,710 The Word of God became precious 100 00:04:15,710 --> 00:04:18,164 and became my food and my delight, 101 00:04:18,164 --> 00:04:20,280 my joy. 102 00:04:20,280 --> 00:04:23,695 Sin was suddenly filthy. 103 00:04:23,695 --> 00:04:26,788 And my sin in particular was filthy. 104 00:04:26,788 --> 00:04:28,136 And my righteousness 105 00:04:28,136 --> 00:04:31,912 was infinitely unworthy of God. 106 00:04:31,912 --> 00:04:34,920 And I just cast myself upon Christ. 107 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,099 I didn't know words like repentance, 108 00:04:38,099 --> 00:04:43,293 but I knew that the Lord had turned my heart 109 00:04:43,293 --> 00:04:45,170 from sin to righteousness, 110 00:04:45,170 --> 00:04:47,505 and sin to pursuing Him 111 00:04:47,505 --> 00:04:50,995 and pursuing His Word. 112 00:04:50,995 --> 00:04:53,894 So that was all in about May of 2003. 113 00:04:53,894 --> 00:04:58,157 I was a junior in high school. 114 00:04:58,157 --> 00:05:00,269 It's the greatest thing, obviously, ever 115 00:05:00,269 --> 00:05:03,550 was the Lord opening my eyes to Him. 116 00:05:03,550 --> 00:05:04,877 To Him. 117 00:05:04,877 --> 00:05:06,105 James: At that point, 118 00:05:06,105 --> 00:05:07,419 how much longer was it 119 00:05:07,419 --> 00:05:09,939 until you were exposed to more sound doctrine 120 00:05:09,939 --> 00:05:11,351 and more sound teaching? 121 00:05:11,351 --> 00:05:13,207 Justin: Yes, so after my conversion 122 00:05:13,207 --> 00:05:16,939 in summer 2003, 123 00:05:16,939 --> 00:05:19,775 I started joining my friend 124 00:05:19,775 --> 00:05:23,713 at a local Bible teaching church. 125 00:05:23,713 --> 00:05:25,791 Arminian-type church 126 00:05:25,791 --> 00:05:29,913 where salvation was a human decision. 127 00:05:29,913 --> 00:05:33,005 It was a work of man. 128 00:05:33,005 --> 00:05:35,067 But nevertheless, the Word of God 129 00:05:35,067 --> 00:05:36,492 was being taught there 130 00:05:36,492 --> 00:05:38,088 systematically through the Bible, 131 00:05:38,088 --> 00:05:41,198 so God was giving me a love for His Word 132 00:05:41,198 --> 00:05:42,144 through this church 133 00:05:42,144 --> 00:05:43,616 and through a faithful pastor 134 00:05:43,616 --> 00:05:45,516 who meant well, who loved his people, 135 00:05:45,516 --> 00:05:47,285 who loved me, took me under his wing 136 00:05:47,285 --> 00:05:48,686 and taught me. 137 00:05:48,686 --> 00:05:50,847 He gave me my first study Bible 138 00:05:50,847 --> 00:05:53,020 and just really, really pushed me 139 00:05:53,020 --> 00:05:55,192 and pressed me to study the Word. 140 00:05:55,192 --> 00:05:59,012 But it wasn't until about 2008, 141 00:05:59,012 --> 00:06:01,279 so I went about five years 142 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:03,420 into my Christianity 143 00:06:03,420 --> 00:06:09,052 where I didn't know 144 00:06:09,052 --> 00:06:11,278 just the glory of the Gospel. 145 00:06:11,278 --> 00:06:13,159 I knew enough to know 146 00:06:13,159 --> 00:06:14,763 that Christ died for my sins, 147 00:06:14,763 --> 00:06:15,744 that I was a sinner, 148 00:06:15,744 --> 00:06:17,281 that He took my place 149 00:06:17,281 --> 00:06:19,075 so that I could go to heaven. 150 00:06:19,075 --> 00:06:23,569 And I knew that I was commanded to repent 151 00:06:23,569 --> 00:06:25,210 and believe in Christ, 152 00:06:25,210 --> 00:06:28,395 in which I believe God granted me repentance 153 00:06:28,395 --> 00:06:31,478 and God turned my heart to Him 154 00:06:31,478 --> 00:06:32,640 and opened my heart. 155 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:34,568 But it wasn't until about 2008 156 00:06:34,568 --> 00:06:39,867 where I got exposed to Paul Washer 157 00:06:39,867 --> 00:06:41,266 on the Internet - 158 00:06:41,266 --> 00:06:42,884 the "Shocking Youth Message" 159 00:06:42,884 --> 00:06:44,447 that a lot of us have heard. 160 00:06:44,447 --> 00:06:46,626 And when I heard that, I thought 161 00:06:46,626 --> 00:06:48,405 whatever this man believes, 162 00:06:48,405 --> 00:06:51,712 whatever this man is studying, 163 00:06:51,712 --> 00:06:55,121 I want to study and I want to know the Bible 164 00:06:55,121 --> 00:06:56,824 the way this man knows the Bible. 165 00:06:56,824 --> 00:06:58,488 So, there I am. 166 00:06:58,488 --> 00:07:00,314 He's preaching in Matthew 7. 167 00:07:00,314 --> 00:07:03,297 There I am looking at Matthew 7 in a new light. 168 00:07:03,297 --> 00:07:08,265 And so, I went to the HeartCry website 169 00:07:08,265 --> 00:07:10,424 and looked at the recommended reading list 170 00:07:10,424 --> 00:07:14,476 and later on I discovered that a lot of these men 171 00:07:14,476 --> 00:07:18,694 are what someone's calling "reformed" or "Calvinistic" 172 00:07:18,694 --> 00:07:21,830 which I had no idea what that meant at the time. 173 00:07:21,830 --> 00:07:23,202 And frankly, I didn't care. 174 00:07:23,202 --> 00:07:25,842 I just knew that this is solid stuff 175 00:07:25,842 --> 00:07:27,229 and it's Scriptural. 176 00:07:27,229 --> 00:07:29,453 So, it was about five years before 177 00:07:29,453 --> 00:07:33,875 I started listening to men like Paul Washer, 178 00:07:33,875 --> 00:07:36,516 John Piper, John MacArthur. 179 00:07:36,516 --> 00:07:39,450 I eventually got started listening 180 00:07:39,450 --> 00:07:41,591 to Illbehonest.com. 181 00:07:41,591 --> 00:07:43,704 So it was about five years. 182 00:07:43,704 --> 00:07:46,432 James: What happened to make you realize 183 00:07:46,432 --> 00:07:48,318 you maybe needed to leave the church 184 00:07:48,318 --> 00:07:50,052 you were a part of 185 00:07:50,052 --> 00:07:52,501 and that the issues were not all minor? 186 00:07:52,501 --> 00:07:57,682 Justin: So we left Calvary Chapel 187 00:07:57,682 --> 00:08:01,008 actually before the Lord opened my eyes 188 00:08:01,008 --> 00:08:06,796 to sound biblical doctrine, 189 00:08:06,796 --> 00:08:09,018 which I'm calling reformed theology. 190 00:08:09,018 --> 00:08:10,368 The doctrines of grace. 191 00:08:10,368 --> 00:08:11,820 We left before just because 192 00:08:11,820 --> 00:08:13,415 there was something in my spirit 193 00:08:13,415 --> 00:08:17,249 that was wounded every time 194 00:08:17,249 --> 00:08:19,683 the pastor would take the entire congregation 195 00:08:19,683 --> 00:08:21,577 through the sinner's prayer, 196 00:08:21,577 --> 00:08:23,897 and when no one would raise their hand, 197 00:08:23,897 --> 00:08:26,276 there was still that: 198 00:08:26,276 --> 00:08:30,514 Okay, well, since all of us are saved, 199 00:08:30,514 --> 00:08:32,898 let's just thank God now that all of us are saved. 200 00:08:32,898 --> 00:08:35,039 And that would always just 201 00:08:35,039 --> 00:08:37,011 kind of go against my conscience. 202 00:08:37,011 --> 00:08:41,415 Something was alarming my conscience there. 203 00:08:41,415 --> 00:08:44,987 So we left a few months before. 204 00:08:44,987 --> 00:08:47,464 We left in summer of 2007 205 00:08:47,464 --> 00:08:48,995 right after we got married - 206 00:08:48,995 --> 00:08:51,454 Lanae and I. 207 00:08:51,454 --> 00:08:55,082 It wasn't until late 2007, 2008 208 00:08:55,082 --> 00:08:59,058 where we were exposed to sound doctrine 209 00:08:59,058 --> 00:09:00,830 and just the glorious Gospel 210 00:09:00,830 --> 00:09:05,172 that we love and embrace today. 211 00:09:05,172 --> 00:09:07,028 James: So here you are at a point 212 00:09:07,028 --> 00:09:08,368 where you left a church. 213 00:09:08,368 --> 00:09:09,969 At that point, what did you do? 214 00:09:09,969 --> 00:09:11,958 Did you find a church or what happened? 215 00:09:11,958 --> 00:09:14,422 Justin: So, while we were 216 00:09:14,422 --> 00:09:18,316 just learning doctrine, 217 00:09:18,316 --> 00:09:19,308 learning theology, 218 00:09:19,308 --> 00:09:22,553 learning that which is sound, 219 00:09:22,553 --> 00:09:27,713 and that which is true, 220 00:09:27,713 --> 00:09:31,453 to my shame, I still had a low view of the church. 221 00:09:31,453 --> 00:09:35,650 I had a low view of the local church, I should say. 222 00:09:35,650 --> 00:09:37,624 I could boast all day in being part 223 00:09:37,624 --> 00:09:38,859 of the universal church, 224 00:09:38,859 --> 00:09:40,418 but my view of the local church 225 00:09:40,418 --> 00:09:42,576 was very, very low 226 00:09:42,576 --> 00:09:45,678 because of what I had come out of. 227 00:09:45,678 --> 00:09:48,692 We were actually just kind of meeting 228 00:09:48,692 --> 00:09:50,419 in a park - rogue - 229 00:09:50,419 --> 00:09:52,181 kind of on our own, 230 00:09:52,181 --> 00:09:53,941 still teaching the Bible 231 00:09:53,941 --> 00:09:59,161 sort of from a Arminian perspective, 232 00:09:59,161 --> 00:10:03,097 but just going through the Bible 233 00:10:03,097 --> 00:10:04,370 with a few other people 234 00:10:04,370 --> 00:10:06,113 who wanted to just meet at the park. 235 00:10:06,113 --> 00:10:07,940 So there was no accountability. 236 00:10:07,940 --> 00:10:09,839 There was no structure. 237 00:10:09,839 --> 00:10:11,298 And when I say structure, 238 00:10:11,298 --> 00:10:13,192 I'm talking that which you see 239 00:10:13,192 --> 00:10:14,409 in the New Testament 240 00:10:14,409 --> 00:10:15,823 with biblical leadership 241 00:10:15,823 --> 00:10:17,041 and church discipline 242 00:10:17,041 --> 00:10:18,834 and an actual mission to go out 243 00:10:18,834 --> 00:10:20,808 and make disciples. None of that. 244 00:10:20,808 --> 00:10:23,610 It was just surviving in a park 245 00:10:23,610 --> 00:10:30,084 and eventually in a living room. 246 00:10:30,084 --> 00:10:32,589 So, yeah, we didn't immediately start looking 247 00:10:32,589 --> 00:10:36,683 for a new church in town. 248 00:10:36,683 --> 00:10:40,175 It was a few years before we did that. 249 00:10:40,175 --> 00:10:42,875 James: Did you eventually find a church in town? 250 00:10:42,875 --> 00:10:45,068 Justin: We didn't find a church in town. 251 00:10:45,068 --> 00:10:49,156 What we did was we waited a few years. 252 00:10:49,156 --> 00:10:51,562 We thought that a church 253 00:10:51,562 --> 00:10:53,826 was just going to kind of form 254 00:10:53,826 --> 00:10:56,515 in our parks and in our living rooms. 255 00:10:56,515 --> 00:10:58,913 And we thought it was just going to happen 256 00:10:58,913 --> 00:11:02,025 like very organically. 257 00:11:02,025 --> 00:11:05,555 But because our views of the local church 258 00:11:05,555 --> 00:11:06,885 were still skewed, 259 00:11:06,885 --> 00:11:10,291 and because I, at the time, was still 260 00:11:10,291 --> 00:11:13,841 avoiding any kind of call to the ministry. 261 00:11:13,841 --> 00:11:16,099 I wanted enough to influence people, 262 00:11:16,099 --> 00:11:19,162 but not enough to assume full responsibility 263 00:11:19,162 --> 00:11:20,624 for those people. 264 00:11:20,624 --> 00:11:22,236 Very selfish on my part. 265 00:11:22,236 --> 00:11:27,485 Very selfish and unwise. 266 00:11:27,485 --> 00:11:29,052 James: What led you to stay 267 00:11:29,052 --> 00:11:31,509 and plant a church instead of moving? 268 00:11:31,509 --> 00:11:33,534 Justin: So around 2011, 2012 269 00:11:33,534 --> 00:11:36,206 is when we hit rock bottom 270 00:11:36,206 --> 00:11:39,041 because we weren't looking - 271 00:11:39,041 --> 00:11:41,370 we were looking to the Bible 272 00:11:41,370 --> 00:11:43,292 as something to teach per se, 273 00:11:43,292 --> 00:11:46,051 to survive in our living room 274 00:11:46,051 --> 00:11:47,869 with different people there, 275 00:11:47,869 --> 00:11:49,671 but we weren't looking to the Bible 276 00:11:49,671 --> 00:11:53,911 as far as what should a local church look like. 277 00:11:53,911 --> 00:11:55,552 What should the church look like? 278 00:11:55,552 --> 00:11:59,347 What's the mission of the church? None of that. 279 00:11:59,347 --> 00:12:01,552 We hit rock bottom in the sense 280 00:12:01,552 --> 00:12:04,798 that there was no biblical leadership; 281 00:12:04,798 --> 00:12:07,127 there was no accountability, 282 00:12:07,127 --> 00:12:09,254 no structure, no form, nothing. 283 00:12:09,254 --> 00:12:10,665 There was no order. 284 00:12:10,665 --> 00:12:14,430 So we hit rock bottom in our marriage, 285 00:12:14,430 --> 00:12:16,728 in our friendships. 286 00:12:16,728 --> 00:12:19,455 It's just that everything was falling apart. 287 00:12:19,455 --> 00:12:22,634 And so because of the influence 288 00:12:22,634 --> 00:12:26,911 that Illbehonest.com had on us at the time, 289 00:12:26,911 --> 00:12:29,317 I thought I'm going to call this church 290 00:12:29,317 --> 00:12:32,643 and talk to Pastor Tim 291 00:12:32,643 --> 00:12:34,361 or anyone who's willing to listen. 292 00:12:34,361 --> 00:12:38,729 I think Tim actually answered the phone that day 293 00:12:38,729 --> 00:12:40,653 in God's providence, 294 00:12:40,653 --> 00:12:44,481 and he was the one who heard me out, 295 00:12:44,481 --> 00:12:46,089 heard the situation, 296 00:12:46,089 --> 00:12:49,747 and I was able to just say 297 00:12:49,747 --> 00:12:52,271 we're surviving in the living room, 298 00:12:52,271 --> 00:12:54,518 but things just aren't happening. 299 00:12:54,518 --> 00:12:56,371 We're at our wits end 300 00:12:56,371 --> 00:12:59,103 and we're seriously considering moving 301 00:12:59,103 --> 00:13:01,374 to San Antonio to join the church. 302 00:13:01,374 --> 00:13:03,722 And it was at that point 303 00:13:03,722 --> 00:13:06,521 where I still remember his words to this day. 304 00:13:06,521 --> 00:13:10,258 He pauses and he says, 305 00:13:10,258 --> 00:13:13,956 "Well, brother..." he says, 306 00:13:13,956 --> 00:13:17,493 "I don't want you here if the Lord doesn't want you here." 307 00:13:17,493 --> 00:13:24,619 And at first I thought, wow, okay. 308 00:13:24,619 --> 00:13:27,058 But then because I'd heard plenty of his sermons 309 00:13:27,058 --> 00:13:29,749 to know that he's real enough to share that, 310 00:13:29,749 --> 00:13:32,862 I knew that there's something to what he's saying. 311 00:13:32,862 --> 00:13:34,355 And then it was at that point 312 00:13:34,355 --> 00:13:36,501 where he began to ask questions of me. 313 00:13:36,501 --> 00:13:39,241 Like, so wait a minute, you're telling me 314 00:13:39,241 --> 00:13:42,318 that you have several people in your living room 315 00:13:42,318 --> 00:13:45,624 which means that there's a crowd gathered there. 316 00:13:45,624 --> 00:13:48,404 You're also telling me that you're teaching them, 317 00:13:48,404 --> 00:13:51,604 regardless of whether or not you feel called to teach right now, 318 00:13:51,604 --> 00:13:53,241 the fact that you're teaching 319 00:13:53,241 --> 00:13:55,782 and they're gathering every week to listen to you, 320 00:13:55,782 --> 00:13:58,194 he says, that's hopeful for me on my end 321 00:13:58,194 --> 00:14:00,650 to know that; to hear that. 322 00:14:00,650 --> 00:14:03,601 And so he says, 323 00:14:03,601 --> 00:14:05,260 "Honestly, if you move here, 324 00:14:05,260 --> 00:14:07,440 we're probably going to end up training you 325 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,948 and sending you back to Las Cruces." 326 00:14:09,948 --> 00:14:11,953 And so, I thought to myself, 327 00:14:11,953 --> 00:14:16,925 I'd hate to move and then 328 00:14:16,925 --> 00:14:18,758 who knows how long it would take 329 00:14:18,758 --> 00:14:21,445 and then be sent back to Las Cruces. 330 00:14:21,445 --> 00:14:23,705 So he said, "Brother, I want you to pray 331 00:14:23,705 --> 00:14:27,727 about the possibility of staying where you're at. 332 00:14:27,727 --> 00:14:29,308 Here's my phone number. 333 00:14:29,308 --> 00:14:31,979 Here's my Skype. Here's my email 334 00:14:31,979 --> 00:14:34,548 for contact purposes. 335 00:14:34,548 --> 00:14:37,317 And if you need encouragement, 336 00:14:37,317 --> 00:14:39,481 I'm throwing myself out there 337 00:14:39,481 --> 00:14:41,917 as just encouragement 338 00:14:41,917 --> 00:14:43,934 as you go through with this. 339 00:14:43,934 --> 00:14:48,913 So, that was about a 2 or 3 hour conversation, by the way. 340 00:14:48,913 --> 00:14:51,446 So I'm summarizing it all right now. 341 00:14:51,446 --> 00:14:57,493 But he basically put himself out there 342 00:14:57,493 --> 00:14:59,408 as a help. 343 00:14:59,408 --> 00:15:00,596 So we did. 344 00:15:00,596 --> 00:15:04,242 We seriously prayed about it. 345 00:15:04,242 --> 00:15:08,144 We - I'm talking about my wife and I. 346 00:15:08,144 --> 00:15:12,048 We were ready to pack our bags and go. 347 00:15:12,048 --> 00:15:13,819 But he said pray about it, 348 00:15:13,819 --> 00:15:15,100 which we prayed about it. 349 00:15:15,100 --> 00:15:17,084 We sought the Lord. 350 00:15:17,084 --> 00:15:20,631 And in seeking the Lord, 351 00:15:20,631 --> 00:15:22,992 honestly, I wanted to move. 352 00:15:22,992 --> 00:15:24,703 I didn't want to stay. 353 00:15:24,703 --> 00:15:28,713 And in seeking the Lord though, 354 00:15:28,713 --> 00:15:30,329 I was hoping for an answer 355 00:15:30,329 --> 00:15:31,782 that it's going to be clear 356 00:15:31,782 --> 00:15:35,225 that you're supposed to move to San Antonio. 357 00:15:35,225 --> 00:15:36,681 But in seeking Him 358 00:15:36,681 --> 00:15:38,839 and waiting upon Him, 359 00:15:38,839 --> 00:15:40,583 together with my wife, 360 00:15:40,583 --> 00:15:43,074 it was becoming very clear 361 00:15:43,074 --> 00:15:45,778 that we were supposed to stay. 362 00:15:45,778 --> 00:15:47,818 I mean, here's help being offered to us. 363 00:15:47,818 --> 00:15:48,903 Here's encouragement. 364 00:15:48,903 --> 00:15:50,973 Here's everything we were lacking 365 00:15:50,973 --> 00:15:52,472 as far as structure 366 00:15:52,472 --> 00:15:54,627 and views of the local church. 367 00:15:54,627 --> 00:15:57,242 Here it is a phone call away now. 368 00:15:57,242 --> 00:15:59,432 So what are we going to do with that now? 369 00:15:59,432 --> 00:16:02,470 Are we going to just ignore it? 370 00:16:02,470 --> 00:16:05,712 Or take the hand that's outstretched 371 00:16:05,712 --> 00:16:09,679 to help us? 372 00:16:09,679 --> 00:16:10,848 It was strange 373 00:16:10,848 --> 00:16:13,157 because God's making it very clear. 374 00:16:13,157 --> 00:16:14,843 Meanwhile, in my heart, 375 00:16:14,843 --> 00:16:17,066 I'm still not wanting ministry. 376 00:16:17,066 --> 00:16:20,767 I'm not wanting to engage, 377 00:16:20,767 --> 00:16:22,256 because I was at a place of 378 00:16:22,256 --> 00:16:23,940 hitting rock bottom 379 00:16:23,940 --> 00:16:25,888 as far as my walk - I was discouraged. 380 00:16:25,888 --> 00:16:27,446 We were without a church. 381 00:16:27,446 --> 00:16:30,873 I just wanted to sit under a leader 382 00:16:30,873 --> 00:16:32,828 and sit under teaching 383 00:16:32,828 --> 00:16:34,835 because of the state of my own soul. 384 00:16:34,835 --> 00:16:37,810 But here we are praying. 385 00:16:37,810 --> 00:16:39,664 The Lord's making it clear. 386 00:16:39,664 --> 00:16:41,991 And because the Lord made it clear, 387 00:16:41,991 --> 00:16:45,921 that was enough for me to say: 388 00:16:45,921 --> 00:16:49,942 I, myself, need to get my heart right before the Lord. 389 00:16:49,942 --> 00:16:51,818 Not for the sake of pastoring a church, 390 00:16:51,818 --> 00:16:55,606 but because I'm a Christian. 391 00:16:55,606 --> 00:16:56,958 It was at that point 392 00:16:56,958 --> 00:16:59,552 where a love and a desire 393 00:16:59,552 --> 00:17:01,723 to serve God's people 394 00:17:01,723 --> 00:17:04,728 in faithfully bringing the Word to them every week 395 00:17:04,728 --> 00:17:07,984 began to be birthed 396 00:17:07,984 --> 00:17:10,289 and to just grow and grow and grow. 397 00:17:10,289 --> 00:17:12,109 That's when there was more frequent 398 00:17:12,109 --> 00:17:14,447 Skype visits with Tim 399 00:17:14,447 --> 00:17:16,825 and phone calls, random emails 400 00:17:16,825 --> 00:17:21,182 that I'd ask him questions about. 401 00:17:21,182 --> 00:17:23,324 So, yeah. 402 00:17:23,324 --> 00:17:25,182 James: What difficulties have you had 403 00:17:25,182 --> 00:17:26,383 in church planting? 404 00:17:26,383 --> 00:17:29,149 And where there times you just wanted to give up? 405 00:17:29,149 --> 00:17:31,358 Justin: Difficulties in church planting? 406 00:17:31,358 --> 00:17:37,270 I would say, for me, as one myself, 407 00:17:37,270 --> 00:17:39,553 I never wanted to be one of those 408 00:17:39,553 --> 00:17:42,877 self-appointed men - 409 00:17:42,877 --> 00:17:47,291 I think for me, 410 00:17:47,291 --> 00:17:51,201 you typically hear of churches planting churches. 411 00:17:51,201 --> 00:17:56,120 So, for me, that didn't happen with us. 412 00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:58,243 We just kind of came out of the blue 413 00:17:58,243 --> 00:18:00,136 and said we're going to plant a church. 414 00:18:00,136 --> 00:18:03,025 And so anytime a difficulty would arise, 415 00:18:03,025 --> 00:18:04,602 I'd look back at our past 416 00:18:04,602 --> 00:18:06,123 and how we got started and say, 417 00:18:06,123 --> 00:18:09,086 well, that's why it's not going smoothly 418 00:18:09,086 --> 00:18:14,414 was because we don't have a sister church 419 00:18:14,414 --> 00:18:17,321 down the road from us sending us 420 00:18:17,321 --> 00:18:18,695 and helping us. 421 00:18:18,695 --> 00:18:20,907 We're just starting off with no pattern. 422 00:18:20,907 --> 00:18:22,840 And Tim was always faithful to remind me 423 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:24,493 that the Bible is your pattern. 424 00:18:24,493 --> 00:18:26,573 The Bible is your blueprint. 425 00:18:26,573 --> 00:18:29,765 The Bible is that which you're looking for there. 426 00:18:29,765 --> 00:18:38,587 And so, other difficulties are people - 427 00:18:38,587 --> 00:18:40,625 people that are like me. 428 00:18:40,625 --> 00:18:46,070 People that are inconsistent. 429 00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:48,026 I'd say one difficulty for me 430 00:18:48,026 --> 00:18:53,343 was working a full time job, 431 00:18:53,343 --> 00:18:57,777 having, by God's goodness, a growing family 432 00:18:57,777 --> 00:19:00,837 of very needy children, 433 00:19:00,837 --> 00:19:03,082 and needing a house, 434 00:19:03,082 --> 00:19:06,354 and needing a full time job to provide. 435 00:19:06,354 --> 00:19:09,678 By the end of that, a long work week, 436 00:19:09,678 --> 00:19:15,313 now the thought of when everyone's going to rest 437 00:19:15,313 --> 00:19:17,854 for the weekend and leisure 438 00:19:17,854 --> 00:19:20,406 and vacation and relax, 439 00:19:20,406 --> 00:19:22,324 now, for me, mentally and spiritually, 440 00:19:22,324 --> 00:19:26,490 now the greatest work begins. 441 00:19:26,490 --> 00:19:28,610 As I'm on my way home, I'm thinking, 442 00:19:28,610 --> 00:19:30,258 alright, I'm so glad it's Friday, 443 00:19:30,258 --> 00:19:32,422 but then it's like, 444 00:19:32,422 --> 00:19:35,031 wow, the work is beginning now. 445 00:19:35,031 --> 00:19:39,601 The burden is descending. 446 00:19:39,601 --> 00:19:46,484 Where are we going to be at in the Word this week? 447 00:19:46,484 --> 00:19:49,721 "Lord, what do You want to say to Your people this week?" begins... 448 00:19:49,721 --> 00:19:52,389 And so, you know, full time ministry, 449 00:19:52,389 --> 00:19:55,982 also full time vocation/job, 450 00:19:55,982 --> 00:19:57,809 that can be very discouraging. 451 00:19:57,809 --> 00:19:59,555 That's a difficult thing. 452 00:19:59,555 --> 00:20:04,292 You're feeling guilt for not being there 453 00:20:04,292 --> 00:20:06,419 for the people as much as you'd like to, 454 00:20:06,419 --> 00:20:08,231 so you feel in the back of your mind 455 00:20:08,231 --> 00:20:13,084 that what you're doing is never enough. 456 00:20:13,084 --> 00:20:15,458 Full time work, full time family, 457 00:20:15,458 --> 00:20:17,976 growing family, a lack of laborers 458 00:20:17,976 --> 00:20:19,534 can be discouraging, 459 00:20:19,534 --> 00:20:21,913 difficult at times. 460 00:20:21,913 --> 00:20:23,680 People are asking you, 461 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,563 why aren't we out doing this? Why aren't we out doing that? 462 00:20:26,563 --> 00:20:27,569 And you're thinking, 463 00:20:27,569 --> 00:20:29,247 I'm trying to make my lunch tonight 464 00:20:29,247 --> 00:20:30,939 for the workday tomorrow. 465 00:20:30,939 --> 00:20:36,906 Or, I'm burned out because of work today. 466 00:20:36,906 --> 00:20:41,576 So, unrealistic expectations 467 00:20:41,576 --> 00:20:43,320 on the parts of yourself 468 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,793 or coming from others as well 469 00:20:45,793 --> 00:20:52,154 can be very difficult as well. 470 00:20:52,154 --> 00:20:58,325 For me, hearing of great movements 471 00:20:58,325 --> 00:20:59,942 in the world 472 00:20:59,942 --> 00:21:02,058 and then looking at this meager, 473 00:21:02,058 --> 00:21:06,910 small work taking place, 474 00:21:06,910 --> 00:21:12,727 could be kind of discouraging at times as well. 475 00:21:12,727 --> 00:21:14,905 Reading church history at times for me 476 00:21:14,905 --> 00:21:16,966 was discouraging. 477 00:21:16,966 --> 00:21:19,708 There's so many. 478 00:21:19,708 --> 00:21:21,543 At the same time, 479 00:21:21,543 --> 00:21:23,357 and I started out this way, 480 00:21:23,357 --> 00:21:25,003 I didn't want to be one of those 481 00:21:25,003 --> 00:21:29,605 self-appointed people, right, 482 00:21:29,605 --> 00:21:31,846 that's just: I've got a gift. 483 00:21:31,846 --> 00:21:34,174 People are going to have to deal with it. 484 00:21:34,174 --> 00:21:38,515 And I'm just going to be the pastor here. 485 00:21:38,515 --> 00:21:43,138 But I think over time, 486 00:21:43,138 --> 00:21:44,925 people know. 487 00:21:44,925 --> 00:21:46,391 People know if you're called. 488 00:21:46,391 --> 00:21:48,110 And that's one of the ways I think 489 00:21:48,110 --> 00:21:49,740 God validates those who are called 490 00:21:49,740 --> 00:21:51,365 is by His church. 491 00:21:51,365 --> 00:21:54,094 And so that's been helpful 492 00:21:54,094 --> 00:21:55,469 in times of discouragement, 493 00:21:55,469 --> 00:22:00,135 is the church in love calling you "pastor," 494 00:22:00,135 --> 00:22:01,685 or calling you "our shepherd," 495 00:22:01,685 --> 00:22:03,841 or calling you "our leader," 496 00:22:03,841 --> 00:22:07,043 in times where you feel 497 00:22:07,043 --> 00:22:09,462 completely unworthy to serve them, you know. 498 00:22:09,462 --> 00:22:11,361 James: In these first couple of years, 499 00:22:11,361 --> 00:22:14,672 was there still an ongoing uncertainty 500 00:22:14,672 --> 00:22:16,627 of: Am I in God's will? 501 00:22:16,627 --> 00:22:19,808 Or, what happened where you had 502 00:22:19,808 --> 00:22:21,972 more confidence that you knew: 503 00:22:21,972 --> 00:22:24,352 I'm in the Lord's will. 504 00:22:24,352 --> 00:22:26,563 Justin: I think still questioning 505 00:22:26,563 --> 00:22:27,900 my own calling. 506 00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:29,320 I didn't go to seminary. 507 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,554 I didn't have a formal theological education. 508 00:22:32,554 --> 00:22:35,130 I'm doing what I can with Sermon Audio 509 00:22:35,130 --> 00:22:38,253 and Monergism audio and all that 510 00:22:38,253 --> 00:22:41,830 to learn and to grow. 511 00:22:41,830 --> 00:22:46,726 And so, I think the first few years, 512 00:22:46,726 --> 00:22:48,382 there was a lot of discouragement 513 00:22:48,382 --> 00:22:52,299 just because, again, I was questioning: 514 00:22:52,299 --> 00:22:54,855 we didn't get started the typical way 515 00:22:54,855 --> 00:22:58,685 another church plant gets started. 516 00:22:58,685 --> 00:23:00,282 So, is God in this? 517 00:23:00,282 --> 00:23:02,392 Am I called to do this? 518 00:23:02,392 --> 00:23:04,429 There was just a lot of uncertainty 519 00:23:04,429 --> 00:23:05,911 with my own calling. 520 00:23:05,911 --> 00:23:09,506 And it wasn't until, one, 521 00:23:09,506 --> 00:23:12,461 I read Spurgeon's call to the ministry 522 00:23:12,461 --> 00:23:16,068 in his lectures to his students - 523 00:23:16,068 --> 00:23:17,961 you know, one of the things he says 524 00:23:17,961 --> 00:23:20,335 is if you can be satisfied 525 00:23:20,335 --> 00:23:23,398 doing something else, he says, go do it. 526 00:23:23,398 --> 00:23:26,121 And for me, there was just an unsettling 527 00:23:26,121 --> 00:23:31,850 matter in may heart that I must do this. 528 00:23:31,850 --> 00:23:35,410 I can't imagine myself doing anything else. 529 00:23:35,410 --> 00:23:37,367 Like Jeremiah says, there's a fire 530 00:23:37,367 --> 00:23:39,215 burning up in my bones, 531 00:23:39,215 --> 00:23:41,413 and if I don't do it, I'm going to burn up 532 00:23:41,413 --> 00:23:42,768 type of a thing. 533 00:23:42,768 --> 00:23:45,438 So I think a few years into the work, 534 00:23:45,438 --> 00:23:47,833 when I began to see people 535 00:23:47,833 --> 00:23:51,111 falling in love with the Scriptures 536 00:23:51,111 --> 00:23:53,071 and in love with God, 537 00:23:53,071 --> 00:23:57,029 and just hating sin and fighting sin 538 00:23:57,029 --> 00:23:59,549 and finding joy in God - 539 00:23:59,549 --> 00:24:01,642 when you see a little bit of the fruits 540 00:24:01,642 --> 00:24:04,489 that God allows you to see of your ministry, 541 00:24:04,489 --> 00:24:08,863 there's a lot of confirmation that God's in it. 542 00:24:08,863 --> 00:24:11,932 I remember a quote that I'll always cling to 543 00:24:11,932 --> 00:24:13,919 from H.B. Charles, Jr., 544 00:24:13,919 --> 00:24:15,708 who said to pastors, 545 00:24:15,708 --> 00:24:18,635 he says, "Brothers, the harvest 546 00:24:18,635 --> 00:24:20,389 is not at the end of your sermon. 547 00:24:20,389 --> 00:24:22,770 It's at the end of the age." 548 00:24:22,770 --> 00:24:24,757 And so as most preachers know, 549 00:24:24,757 --> 00:24:27,342 Sunday's can be the most discouraging day of the week 550 00:24:27,342 --> 00:24:30,558 because you feel like crawling under a rock after that. 551 00:24:30,558 --> 00:24:33,683 But, in the midst of the work 552 00:24:33,683 --> 00:24:35,270 of church planting - 553 00:24:35,270 --> 00:24:37,618 and I don't even like to call it church planting, 554 00:24:37,618 --> 00:24:47,698 because you're seeking to fulfill 555 00:24:47,698 --> 00:24:49,366 the Great Commission, 556 00:24:49,366 --> 00:24:51,131 and I think the only way to do that 557 00:24:51,131 --> 00:24:52,633 is within the local church 558 00:24:52,633 --> 00:24:54,236 where there is evangelism, 559 00:24:54,236 --> 00:24:56,576 where there is the making of disciples 560 00:24:56,576 --> 00:24:58,369 but also the maturing of disciples, 561 00:24:58,369 --> 00:25:00,723 and the multiplying of disciples. 562 00:25:00,723 --> 00:25:04,466 And so when you see a little bit of fruit 563 00:25:04,466 --> 00:25:07,186 of the labor and the joy 564 00:25:07,186 --> 00:25:10,425 and the peace of God behind it all, 565 00:25:10,425 --> 00:25:12,336 there's a great assurance behind it. 566 00:25:12,336 --> 00:25:14,505 And I think that's when I reached out to you 567 00:25:14,505 --> 00:25:15,672 and told you that 568 00:25:15,672 --> 00:25:17,714 we're even more convinced that this is 569 00:25:17,714 --> 00:25:19,640 exactly what we're called to do. 570 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,040 Because of that - seeing God in it. 571 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:23,943 James: A question that often comes up 572 00:25:23,943 --> 00:25:26,459 from people is if they should move 573 00:25:26,459 --> 00:25:28,013 to be a part of a church. 574 00:25:28,013 --> 00:25:29,408 What thoughts, cautions, 575 00:25:29,408 --> 00:25:31,080 or encouragements would you give 576 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,151 to a person in a similar situation? 577 00:25:34,151 --> 00:25:35,531 Justin: I would say 578 00:25:35,531 --> 00:25:39,448 based on my own experience in the matter, 579 00:25:39,448 --> 00:25:42,018 wanting to move because of the fact 580 00:25:42,018 --> 00:25:43,973 that we didn't have a local church 581 00:25:43,973 --> 00:25:46,646 that we were a part of, 582 00:25:46,646 --> 00:25:49,796 is beware of false romantic views 583 00:25:49,796 --> 00:25:51,657 of a church. 584 00:25:51,657 --> 00:25:53,678 It's easy to see only what YouTube 585 00:25:53,678 --> 00:25:55,810 is posting up about this church. 586 00:25:55,810 --> 00:25:58,735 It's easy to see only what you're hearing 587 00:25:58,735 --> 00:26:01,203 in the sermon regarding a church. 588 00:26:01,203 --> 00:26:03,899 You're not seeing the full life of a church 589 00:26:03,899 --> 00:26:06,120 in just turning on a sermon on Sermon Audio 590 00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:08,351 or whatever the media might be. 591 00:26:08,351 --> 00:26:10,538 So I think it's easy for people to have 592 00:26:10,538 --> 00:26:13,568 a romantic view of a particular church. 593 00:26:13,568 --> 00:26:15,676 And I know that only because 594 00:26:15,676 --> 00:26:17,626 we get visitors sometimes 595 00:26:17,626 --> 00:26:21,923 and they say, "You're Justin Trevino." 596 00:26:21,923 --> 00:26:26,214 And I'm thinking, yeah, but... 597 00:26:26,214 --> 00:26:28,317 And I can see there's a sense 598 00:26:28,317 --> 00:26:32,148 of expectation there that has been kindled 599 00:26:32,148 --> 00:26:34,564 on YouTube over a long period of time 600 00:26:34,564 --> 00:26:36,630 or Sermon Audio for a long period of time. 601 00:26:36,630 --> 00:26:39,494 And before long, they just view you as brother. 602 00:26:39,494 --> 00:26:41,123 They see you as brother. 603 00:26:41,123 --> 00:26:43,331 And I think there can be a lot of false, 604 00:26:43,331 --> 00:26:51,430 romantic views over the Internet, right? 605 00:26:51,430 --> 00:26:54,276 And it could be that the Lord 606 00:26:54,276 --> 00:26:57,727 wants to do something in your own town, 607 00:26:57,727 --> 00:27:00,330 in your own city, wherever you're from. 608 00:27:00,330 --> 00:27:04,130 And moving isn't always the solution. 609 00:27:04,130 --> 00:27:08,755 It could be that you're sensing a need, 610 00:27:08,755 --> 00:27:13,532 but you're seeing the solution in moving, 611 00:27:13,532 --> 00:27:15,814 and the solution isn't necessarily in moving, 612 00:27:15,814 --> 00:27:18,172 it's in seeking the Lord 613 00:27:18,172 --> 00:27:19,570 and waiting and saying, 614 00:27:19,570 --> 00:27:22,099 Lord, what might You want to do here 615 00:27:22,099 --> 00:27:25,227 where I'm at? 616 00:27:25,227 --> 00:27:28,478 Again, because I was burned out at the time, 617 00:27:28,478 --> 00:27:30,639 just needing to be taught, 618 00:27:30,639 --> 00:27:35,422 needing a biblical local church, 619 00:27:35,422 --> 00:27:37,980 we were just like we've got to get out of this city 620 00:27:37,980 --> 00:27:39,473 and move on to something else. 621 00:27:39,473 --> 00:27:41,917 But because I had the friendship, 622 00:27:41,917 --> 00:27:43,861 the encouragement from Tim, 623 00:27:43,861 --> 00:27:47,560 I thought, well, I'm going to fall back on that 624 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,171 as I get my heart right, 625 00:27:51,171 --> 00:27:53,574 as I get my family right 626 00:27:53,574 --> 00:27:55,676 and move on with things. 627 00:27:55,676 --> 00:27:57,338 I would say the main thing 628 00:27:57,338 --> 00:27:59,297 is people can easily over the Internet 629 00:27:59,297 --> 00:28:01,477 have a false view of a church; 630 00:28:01,477 --> 00:28:03,187 an unrealistic view of a church, 631 00:28:03,187 --> 00:28:04,591 where everything's romantic, 632 00:28:04,591 --> 00:28:05,680 everything's perfect, 633 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,700 and you're only hearing the mouthpiece 634 00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:11,044 in a certain church. 635 00:28:11,044 --> 00:28:12,440 You're not seeing the arms. 636 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:13,869 You're not seeing the feet. 637 00:28:13,869 --> 00:28:15,177 You're not seeing the body. 638 00:28:15,177 --> 00:28:17,785 You're only hearing the mouth. 639 00:28:17,785 --> 00:28:22,976 And that can be very, very deceiving at times. 640 00:28:22,976 --> 00:28:25,777 I would say the biggest lesson 641 00:28:25,777 --> 00:28:27,361 while working a full time job 642 00:28:27,361 --> 00:28:29,605 and seeking to plant a church 643 00:28:29,605 --> 00:28:35,273 is that little is a lot when God's truly in it. 644 00:28:35,273 --> 00:28:37,979 The few loaves and fish that you have 645 00:28:37,979 --> 00:28:39,634 to bring before God 646 00:28:39,634 --> 00:28:41,849 that you think is nothing 647 00:28:41,849 --> 00:28:44,243 is what often leaves people 648 00:28:44,243 --> 00:28:45,868 in the congregation 649 00:28:45,868 --> 00:28:47,316 shaking your hand afterwards 650 00:28:47,316 --> 00:28:50,443 when you feel like you've completely failed 651 00:28:50,443 --> 00:28:51,725 in preaching. 652 00:28:51,725 --> 00:28:53,314 And it's always those sermons 653 00:28:53,314 --> 00:28:56,337 where you've had little sleep, 654 00:28:56,337 --> 00:28:58,997 you've had little preparation time, 655 00:28:58,997 --> 00:29:01,316 you've had a lot of exhaustion over the week, 656 00:29:01,316 --> 00:29:02,871 and people are thanking you 657 00:29:02,871 --> 00:29:05,246 that God really spoke to them 658 00:29:05,246 --> 00:29:06,967 and that they were helped. 659 00:29:06,967 --> 00:29:09,087 And you're thinking, 660 00:29:09,087 --> 00:29:10,589 that's only the Lord 661 00:29:10,589 --> 00:29:14,114 because I've had nothing to offer 662 00:29:14,114 --> 00:29:16,328 in my mind, right? 663 00:29:16,328 --> 00:29:18,983 But I'd say that's one of the biggest lessons 664 00:29:18,983 --> 00:29:21,319 is that God is often pleased 665 00:29:21,319 --> 00:29:24,321 to use what little we have to offer 666 00:29:24,321 --> 00:29:26,036 if it's offered in faith, 667 00:29:26,036 --> 00:29:28,992 and it's offered in childlike dependence 668 00:29:28,992 --> 00:29:30,317 upon Him. 669 00:29:30,317 --> 00:29:32,438 God is often pleased to use that 670 00:29:32,438 --> 00:29:34,529 to bless His people.