1 00:00:05,686 --> 00:00:17,791 This is from: "anonymous - just humiliated." 2 00:00:17,791 --> 00:00:23,607 "Can I get a divorce? 3 00:00:23,607 --> 00:00:26,718 I am still raw with pain 4 00:00:26,718 --> 00:00:29,168 with every desire..." 5 00:00:29,168 --> 00:00:33,453 Now hear this: "Can I get a divorce? 6 00:00:33,453 --> 00:00:38,256 I am still raw with pain..." 7 00:00:38,256 --> 00:00:43,038 but she has every desire and prays 8 00:00:43,038 --> 00:00:44,521 to forgive her husband 9 00:00:44,521 --> 00:00:46,894 of twenty-plus years 10 00:00:46,894 --> 00:00:49,228 for his adulterous affair 11 00:00:49,228 --> 00:00:52,895 with a young, beautiful woman, 12 00:00:52,895 --> 00:00:56,622 who he spent over $8,000 on 13 00:00:56,622 --> 00:00:59,479 with traveling to at least five states 14 00:00:59,479 --> 00:01:01,186 including six cities, 15 00:01:01,186 --> 00:01:04,571 jewelry from Tiffany's, jackets, 16 00:01:04,571 --> 00:01:07,178 a new iWatch when it first was introduced 17 00:01:07,178 --> 00:01:09,089 to the market. 18 00:01:09,089 --> 00:01:11,111 It has been a little over two years ago 19 00:01:11,111 --> 00:01:14,027 since this young woman, 20 00:01:14,027 --> 00:01:18,118 angered by their breakup..." 21 00:01:18,118 --> 00:01:21,482 Her husband and this young lady broke up, 22 00:01:21,482 --> 00:01:25,810 so the young lady called the wife 23 00:01:25,810 --> 00:01:27,994 and introduced herself.... 24 00:01:27,994 --> 00:01:31,353 "...to me as his girlfriend." 25 00:01:31,353 --> 00:01:34,116 And revealed all this information, 26 00:01:34,116 --> 00:01:36,634 which her husband didn't deny. 27 00:01:36,634 --> 00:01:38,156 He confirmed it as true 28 00:01:38,156 --> 00:01:40,932 when she confronted him. 29 00:01:40,932 --> 00:01:45,121 "Reconciliation has been harder than anything, 30 00:01:45,121 --> 00:01:49,439 testing my faith as I go to God regularly 31 00:01:49,439 --> 00:01:53,011 to forgive him continually." 32 00:01:53,011 --> 00:01:55,945 She says, "I face triggers." 33 00:01:55,945 --> 00:01:57,700 What does she mean? 34 00:01:57,700 --> 00:01:59,892 There are these triggers that set off 35 00:01:59,892 --> 00:02:02,985 anger and bitterness. 36 00:02:02,985 --> 00:02:05,792 What? New discoveries. 37 00:02:05,792 --> 00:02:08,869 Things that her husband didn't fully disclose. 38 00:02:08,872 --> 00:02:11,820 She's finding out as time goes on 39 00:02:11,820 --> 00:02:16,471 new information, new discoveries. 40 00:02:16,471 --> 00:02:21,610 Inconsistencies in the things 41 00:02:21,610 --> 00:02:28,518 that he has told her that reveal lies. 42 00:02:28,518 --> 00:02:34,651 "And the discovery that he referred to this girl 43 00:02:34,651 --> 00:02:37,280 as his ex-girlfriend, 44 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,918 upgrading their foul, adulterous relationship 45 00:02:40,918 --> 00:02:43,218 as one as common as a courtship 46 00:02:43,218 --> 00:02:45,930 instead of referring to her as what she was, 47 00:02:45,930 --> 00:02:48,167 a mistress. 48 00:02:48,167 --> 00:02:49,783 I'm hurting badly 49 00:02:49,783 --> 00:02:54,290 with feelings of not feeling good enough." 50 00:02:54,290 --> 00:02:59,307 So she feels like a failure as a wife. 51 00:02:59,307 --> 00:03:02,705 "Anger that I wrestle in the flesh 52 00:03:02,705 --> 00:03:07,514 because I cherish my relationship with Jesus Christ. 53 00:03:07,514 --> 00:03:10,460 My journey actually has been smoother 54 00:03:10,460 --> 00:03:14,080 since I've discovered this two-plus years ago. 55 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,361 But we still argue. 56 00:03:16,361 --> 00:03:20,343 He says he's repented, but I don't see how 57 00:03:20,343 --> 00:03:22,293 because I still feel disrespected 58 00:03:22,293 --> 00:03:24,834 in the way he views her. 59 00:03:24,834 --> 00:03:27,116 Like how he mentioned her to someone 60 00:03:27,116 --> 00:03:29,832 as his ex-girlfriend, 61 00:03:29,832 --> 00:03:32,295 and how he tells me I'm crazy 62 00:03:32,295 --> 00:03:34,948 for still wrestling with the problem. 63 00:03:34,948 --> 00:03:38,121 And like how he says he lives a sinless life 64 00:03:38,121 --> 00:03:41,379 now that he's repented. 65 00:03:41,379 --> 00:03:44,769 Like when he uses profanity 66 00:03:44,769 --> 00:03:46,991 in response to me badgering him 67 00:03:46,991 --> 00:03:50,900 about the past adulterous affair 68 00:03:50,900 --> 00:03:53,796 as if it's my fault. 69 00:03:53,796 --> 00:03:55,955 His lies he's told in the aftermath 70 00:03:55,955 --> 00:03:58,162 to cover up things she told me 71 00:03:58,162 --> 00:04:01,037 aren't recognized as sin by him 72 00:04:01,037 --> 00:04:03,491 because now that he's not committing adultery, 73 00:04:03,491 --> 00:04:05,784 he claims he's sinless." 74 00:04:05,784 --> 00:04:07,974 She says, "I'm born again, 75 00:04:07,974 --> 00:04:10,161 and I'm always repenting, 76 00:04:10,161 --> 00:04:12,617 always seeking the Lord to purge me 77 00:04:12,617 --> 00:04:14,030 as He said He would. 78 00:04:14,030 --> 00:04:17,116 'Every branch that abides in Him...' 79 00:04:17,116 --> 00:04:22,518 I'm never so satisfied with where I am 80 00:04:22,518 --> 00:04:24,740 that I call myself sinless. 81 00:04:24,740 --> 00:04:26,900 Am I set free? Yes. 82 00:04:26,900 --> 00:04:29,050 But now more than ever, I'm wrestling 83 00:04:29,050 --> 00:04:31,886 with anger and unforgiveness 84 00:04:31,886 --> 00:04:33,920 as they are triggered. 85 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,231 I have really great days. 86 00:04:36,231 --> 00:04:39,396 I have good days, moderate days, 87 00:04:39,396 --> 00:04:44,347 and really, really bad days. 88 00:04:44,347 --> 00:04:46,408 I'm seeking the Lord 89 00:04:46,408 --> 00:04:51,249 and pouring out to Him through all this." 90 00:04:51,249 --> 00:04:55,932 Now she also sent a follow-up 91 00:04:55,932 --> 00:04:59,806 where she said this: 92 00:04:59,806 --> 00:05:01,808 "I'm so sorry 93 00:05:01,808 --> 00:05:05,082 concerning the message I just sent. 94 00:05:05,082 --> 00:05:10,601 Be it far from me to leave out my own fault too. 95 00:05:10,601 --> 00:05:12,510 I've been wrestling with both anger 96 00:05:12,510 --> 00:05:15,754 and horrible profanity. 97 00:05:15,754 --> 00:05:18,630 I'm repenting constantly for my angry outbursts 98 00:05:18,630 --> 00:05:20,325 about the affair 99 00:05:20,325 --> 00:05:23,984 and the marital neglect I experienced. 100 00:05:23,984 --> 00:05:25,522 And to be honest," she says, 101 00:05:25,522 --> 00:05:29,660 "he has many times sat quietly 102 00:05:29,660 --> 00:05:31,791 and listened to me. 103 00:05:31,791 --> 00:05:35,130 He has not been a monster toward me 104 00:05:35,130 --> 00:05:38,671 since about two months after the discovery 105 00:05:38,671 --> 00:05:42,525 of his adulterous affair. 106 00:05:42,525 --> 00:05:45,967 And I'm sorry I left those points out." 107 00:05:45,967 --> 00:05:52,136 She felt convicted. 108 00:05:52,136 --> 00:05:55,268 So her first question is 109 00:05:55,268 --> 00:05:56,587 can I get a divorce? 110 00:05:56,587 --> 00:05:58,360 Now you recognize, she follows it up 111 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,365 by saying "every desire in her prayer 112 00:06:02,365 --> 00:06:05,312 is to forgive her husband." 113 00:06:05,312 --> 00:06:08,807 So this is a woman that's torn. 114 00:06:08,807 --> 00:06:11,244 This is a woman who's trying to heal, 115 00:06:11,244 --> 00:06:13,714 but she says there's triggers. 116 00:06:13,714 --> 00:06:17,583 Like she finds some new information 117 00:06:17,583 --> 00:06:19,970 that he wasn't honest about. 118 00:06:19,970 --> 00:06:21,876 Or he seems to downplay it - 119 00:06:21,876 --> 00:06:24,357 say it's her sin, it's her fault. 120 00:06:24,357 --> 00:06:31,097 Why does she keep carrying on with this? 121 00:06:31,097 --> 00:06:34,870 What do you tell her? 122 00:06:34,870 --> 00:06:39,912 She says, "he tells me I'm crazy 123 00:06:39,912 --> 00:06:44,357 for still wrestling with the problem." 124 00:06:44,357 --> 00:06:51,229 I would say to her you're not crazy. 125 00:06:51,229 --> 00:06:52,932 I mean, clearly if you're a woman 126 00:06:52,932 --> 00:06:55,157 and your husband has been unfaithful 127 00:06:55,157 --> 00:06:58,798 and then in the aftermath of it, 128 00:06:58,798 --> 00:07:02,671 new information keeps coming out, 129 00:07:02,671 --> 00:07:05,561 lies get uncovered, 130 00:07:05,561 --> 00:07:07,816 your husband basically acts like 131 00:07:07,816 --> 00:07:09,458 now that he's repented it's over 132 00:07:09,458 --> 00:07:13,317 and you ought to just get over it. 133 00:07:13,317 --> 00:07:15,658 No, I would say that all those things 134 00:07:15,658 --> 00:07:20,149 are exactly going to keep the wound 135 00:07:20,149 --> 00:07:23,838 opening up afresh. 136 00:07:23,838 --> 00:07:26,924 What do you tell her? 137 00:07:26,924 --> 00:07:30,514 Let's start right there. Can I get a divorce? 138 00:07:30,514 --> 00:07:35,405 What do you tell her? 139 00:07:35,405 --> 00:07:38,961 I don't even think that she really wants one. 140 00:07:38,961 --> 00:07:42,261 But she's asking the question. 141 00:07:42,261 --> 00:07:43,276 (from the room) 142 00:07:43,276 --> 00:07:45,828 I don't think that's something that you give 143 00:07:45,828 --> 00:07:48,866 strong response to right away 144 00:07:48,866 --> 00:07:50,967 because of the nature of it. 145 00:07:50,967 --> 00:07:53,262 She doesn't seem like she wants a divorce. 146 00:07:53,262 --> 00:07:55,695 The guy has been unfaithful. 147 00:07:55,695 --> 00:07:58,092 She's not going to just get over it. 148 00:07:58,092 --> 00:08:01,863 She seems to want to get over it. 149 00:08:01,863 --> 00:08:06,100 You don't have a quick answer for something like that. 150 00:08:06,100 --> 00:08:07,994 I can't think - even though I know 151 00:08:07,994 --> 00:08:09,779 what Scripture says about divorce 152 00:08:09,779 --> 00:08:12,037 and the grounds for divorce - 153 00:08:12,037 --> 00:08:14,754 she doesn't seem that she really wants to. 154 00:08:14,754 --> 00:08:17,094 What quick response can you give to that? 155 00:08:17,094 --> 00:08:19,407 Tim: Well, she may want to know 156 00:08:19,407 --> 00:08:21,751 that she biblically can 157 00:08:21,751 --> 00:08:24,167 even though she doesn't want to 158 00:08:24,167 --> 00:08:28,416 so that it's kind of a weapon in her arsenal 159 00:08:28,416 --> 00:08:31,660 to leverage over the guy. 160 00:08:31,660 --> 00:08:33,655 I'm just saying that could be. 161 00:08:33,655 --> 00:08:38,059 But I mean, just from a purely biblical standpoint, 162 00:08:38,059 --> 00:08:41,372 (incomplete thought) 163 00:08:41,372 --> 00:08:43,532 Let me ask you this. 164 00:08:43,532 --> 00:08:50,748 If she divorced her husband, 165 00:08:50,748 --> 00:08:54,387 if she was in our church 166 00:08:54,387 --> 00:08:57,138 and she divorced her husband, 167 00:08:57,138 --> 00:08:59,973 should we say, 168 00:08:59,973 --> 00:09:06,452 well, she had biblical grounds? 169 00:09:06,452 --> 00:09:12,883 Would we say, well, we counseled her against it, 170 00:09:12,883 --> 00:09:16,768 but she did actually have biblical grounds? 171 00:09:16,768 --> 00:09:24,713 Would we say no? She can't? 172 00:09:24,713 --> 00:09:27,069 And there would be consequences if she did? 173 00:09:27,069 --> 00:09:32,112 Maybe some kind of disciplinary consequences. 174 00:09:32,112 --> 00:09:36,442 Well, let me ask you this. 175 00:09:36,442 --> 00:09:41,216 If a woman has a husband who's unfaithful, 176 00:09:41,216 --> 00:09:43,130 he says he's repented. 177 00:09:43,130 --> 00:09:47,880 He doesn't go on in his sin. 178 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:54,521 And she seems to really desire to forgive him, 179 00:09:54,521 --> 00:09:57,840 is there a cutoff point? 180 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,256 Would you say that she has a right 181 00:10:01,256 --> 00:10:03,916 25 years down the road to say 182 00:10:03,916 --> 00:10:05,948 you know what? 183 00:10:05,948 --> 00:10:08,588 My husband was unfaithful 25 years ago 184 00:10:08,588 --> 00:10:11,123 and I want out. 185 00:10:11,123 --> 00:10:13,058 I just got sick of this relationship 186 00:10:13,058 --> 00:10:14,354 and I've got a biblical out 187 00:10:14,354 --> 00:10:16,654 and I'm going to take it and use it now. 188 00:10:16,654 --> 00:10:20,906 Is that like a get out of jail free card? 189 00:10:20,906 --> 00:10:27,617 Seriously, the exception points 190 00:10:27,617 --> 00:10:36,628 that are made there in Matthew 5 and 19, 191 00:10:36,628 --> 00:10:41,184 if there's sexual immorality - 192 00:10:41,184 --> 00:10:44,181 except in the case of sexual immorality. 193 00:10:44,181 --> 00:10:48,183 Is there, whether we put a distinct 194 00:10:48,183 --> 00:10:50,073 amount of time on it or not, 195 00:10:50,073 --> 00:10:52,317 is there a time? 196 00:10:52,317 --> 00:10:56,558 When Jesus says except for sexual immorality, 197 00:10:56,558 --> 00:11:00,202 does He mean that well, if you have a spouse 198 00:11:00,202 --> 00:11:03,671 who's been sexually immoral, 199 00:11:03,671 --> 00:11:06,633 and once they've done that, 200 00:11:06,633 --> 00:11:10,833 you basically have a right to divorce them at anytime? 201 00:11:10,833 --> 00:11:13,732 Or is there a timeline? 202 00:11:13,732 --> 00:11:15,452 Would we say there is a time 203 00:11:15,452 --> 00:11:16,843 that if enough time goes by, 204 00:11:16,843 --> 00:11:20,252 that it would be inappropriate? 205 00:11:20,252 --> 00:11:23,318 What say you? 206 00:11:23,318 --> 00:11:27,914 Scripture. 207 00:11:27,914 --> 00:11:32,003 What Scripture has to do with what's right? 208 00:11:32,003 --> 00:11:34,643 What's loving? What's appropiate? 209 00:11:34,643 --> 00:11:45,013 What's God-like? What's Christ-like? 210 00:11:45,013 --> 00:11:46,077 (from the room) 211 00:11:46,077 --> 00:11:52,773 Would 1 Corinthians 7:3-14 212 00:11:52,773 --> 00:11:58,927 be applicable to this situation? 213 00:11:58,927 --> 00:12:05,209 (unintelligible) 214 00:12:05,209 --> 00:12:07,089 Tim: Which verse specifically 215 00:12:07,089 --> 00:12:09,540 are you thinking is applicable? 216 00:12:09,540 --> 00:12:10,637 (from the room) 217 00:12:10,637 --> 00:12:15,577 It's 1 Corinthians 7:13. 218 00:12:15,577 --> 00:12:17,406 "If any woman has a husband 219 00:12:17,406 --> 00:12:18,765 who is an unbeliever 220 00:12:18,765 --> 00:12:21,384 and consents to live with her, 221 00:12:21,384 --> 00:12:23,057 she should not divorce him. 222 00:12:23,057 --> 00:12:24,412 For the unbelieving husband 223 00:12:24,412 --> 00:12:30,349 is made holy because of his wife." 224 00:12:30,349 --> 00:12:33,057 Tim: But that situation doesn't necessarily 225 00:12:33,057 --> 00:12:35,992 bring in the sexual immorality. 226 00:12:35,992 --> 00:12:40,918 Whereas the Matthew texts 227 00:12:40,918 --> 00:12:45,427 do bring in that specific reality. 228 00:12:45,427 --> 00:12:49,358 Let me ask you this. 229 00:12:49,358 --> 00:12:51,625 Do you think that it's possible 230 00:12:51,625 --> 00:13:00,115 to forgive the husband and still divorce him? 231 00:13:00,115 --> 00:13:04,658 I hear no. I hear yes. 232 00:13:04,658 --> 00:13:06,788 Could you imagine a situation 233 00:13:06,788 --> 00:13:11,381 where forgiving him - which is good, 234 00:13:11,381 --> 00:13:13,367 appropriate, 235 00:13:13,367 --> 00:13:18,675 letting go of the bitterness that you feel, 236 00:13:18,675 --> 00:13:24,612 where it still would be necessary to divorce him? 237 00:13:24,612 --> 00:13:30,393 (unintelligible) 238 00:13:30,393 --> 00:13:33,885 I mean, what if your husband 239 00:13:33,885 --> 00:13:39,184 actually was involved in pedophilia or something 240 00:13:39,184 --> 00:13:43,037 and you've got kids. 241 00:13:43,037 --> 00:13:44,533 Is it possible to forgive him 242 00:13:44,533 --> 00:13:47,841 and yet recognize I've got to get out of this 243 00:13:47,841 --> 00:13:49,632 perhaps for my own safety 244 00:13:49,632 --> 00:13:52,049 or for the safety of the children? 245 00:13:52,049 --> 00:13:54,707 Perhaps that could be. 246 00:13:54,707 --> 00:13:57,245 That doesn't seem like this situation. 247 00:13:57,245 --> 00:14:01,433 And clearly it's a different situation 248 00:14:01,433 --> 00:14:04,466 when you have a spouse who's continuing 249 00:14:04,466 --> 00:14:07,907 in their sexual immorality. 250 00:14:07,907 --> 00:14:10,630 But when you have somebody that's committed it 251 00:14:10,630 --> 00:14:13,764 and then they're repentant... 252 00:14:13,764 --> 00:14:15,858 Now, I recognize, we could wrestle with 253 00:14:15,858 --> 00:14:18,408 well, is he sincere? Is he not sincere? 254 00:14:18,408 --> 00:14:20,075 But do you think that a Christian 255 00:14:20,075 --> 00:14:26,283 has an obligation to remain in the marriage 256 00:14:26,283 --> 00:14:32,848 if the spouse repents? 257 00:14:32,848 --> 00:14:38,326 Is it an obligation? 258 00:14:38,326 --> 00:14:42,150 Open your Bibles to Matthew 19. 259 00:14:42,150 --> 00:14:43,424 You're already there. 260 00:14:43,424 --> 00:14:48,158 Look at 19:1, 261 00:14:48,158 --> 00:14:50,602 "Now when Jesus had finished these sayings 262 00:14:50,602 --> 00:14:52,563 He went away from Galilee 263 00:14:52,563 --> 00:14:56,012 and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. 264 00:14:56,012 --> 00:14:57,478 Large crowds followed Him 265 00:14:57,478 --> 00:14:59,539 and He healed them there. 266 00:14:59,539 --> 00:15:01,852 And Pharisees came up to Him and tested Him 267 00:15:01,852 --> 00:15:03,909 by asking 'is it lawful to divorce 268 00:15:03,909 --> 00:15:05,790 one's wife for any cause?' 269 00:15:05,790 --> 00:15:07,381 He answered, 'have you not read 270 00:15:07,381 --> 00:15:09,597 that He Who created them from the beginning 271 00:15:09,597 --> 00:15:11,231 made them male and female?' 272 00:15:11,231 --> 00:15:12,798 And said, 'therefore a man shall 273 00:15:12,798 --> 00:15:14,480 leave his father and his mother 274 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,522 and hold fast to his wife, 275 00:15:16,522 --> 00:15:18,931 and the two shall become one flesh. 276 00:15:18,931 --> 00:15:21,508 So they're no longer two, but one flesh. 277 00:15:21,508 --> 00:15:23,380 What therefore God has joined together, 278 00:15:23,380 --> 00:15:25,348 let not man separate.' 279 00:15:25,348 --> 00:15:27,161 They said to Him, 'Why then did Moses 280 00:15:27,161 --> 00:15:30,111 command one to give a certificate of divorce 281 00:15:30,111 --> 00:15:32,107 and to send her away?' 282 00:15:32,107 --> 00:15:34,671 He said to them, 'Because of your hardness of heart 283 00:15:34,671 --> 00:15:37,406 Moses allowed you to divorce your wives. 284 00:15:37,406 --> 00:15:39,900 But from the beginning, it was not so. 285 00:15:39,900 --> 00:15:43,539 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife 286 00:15:43,539 --> 00:15:46,504 except for sexual immorality 287 00:15:46,504 --> 00:15:49,420 and marries another, commits adultery.'" 288 00:15:49,420 --> 00:15:58,840 So there is an exception there. 289 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:03,902 So okay, with the exception - 290 00:16:03,902 --> 00:16:05,847 now this is speaking of a man. 291 00:16:05,847 --> 00:16:09,528 It was a very man-dominated society then. 292 00:16:09,528 --> 00:16:11,983 But nevertheless, a woman 293 00:16:11,983 --> 00:16:15,836 divorces a husband because of sexual immorality. 294 00:16:15,836 --> 00:16:20,905 It seems like there's an exception there. 295 00:16:20,905 --> 00:16:22,687 There's an exception, 296 00:16:22,687 --> 00:16:24,978 but there certainly isn't a mandate. 297 00:16:24,978 --> 00:16:29,927 It's not commanded. 298 00:16:29,927 --> 00:16:33,567 Do we not feel that a Christian 299 00:16:33,567 --> 00:16:37,355 who forgives sin against themselves - 300 00:16:37,355 --> 00:16:40,238 that's very Christ-like. 301 00:16:40,238 --> 00:16:43,249 For her to forgive her husband - 302 00:16:43,249 --> 00:16:45,235 very Christ-like. 303 00:16:45,235 --> 00:16:47,609 Would we not agree with that? 304 00:16:47,609 --> 00:16:49,585 He's claiming to have repented. 305 00:16:49,585 --> 00:16:54,937 She says for the last two years - 306 00:16:54,937 --> 00:16:58,325 that's 24 months - she says for 22 months, 307 00:16:58,325 --> 00:17:00,271 things have actually gone fairly well. 308 00:17:00,271 --> 00:17:02,997 Now there's these triggers that keep opening it up, 309 00:17:02,997 --> 00:17:05,060 but once he came clean, she says, 310 00:17:05,060 --> 00:17:11,537 that things were pretty good. 311 00:17:11,537 --> 00:17:13,254 What do you tell her? 312 00:17:13,254 --> 00:17:14,628 She's got these triggers. 313 00:17:14,628 --> 00:17:18,385 She's got these difficulties. 314 00:17:18,385 --> 00:17:27,414 What could you tell her that would really help her? 315 00:17:27,414 --> 00:17:28,395 (from the room) 316 00:17:28,395 --> 00:17:30,942 Do you think that telling her that love 317 00:17:30,942 --> 00:17:34,466 does not keep a record of wrongdoing, 318 00:17:34,466 --> 00:17:37,400 if she truly has forgiven him... 319 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,520 for example, like you said, if we tell her 320 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,417 that biblically she can divorce, 321 00:17:41,417 --> 00:17:42,880 is there a time limit? 322 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:44,603 Well, let's say 25 years from now 323 00:17:44,603 --> 00:17:47,368 she wants to divorce. 324 00:17:47,368 --> 00:17:49,206 Tim: Here's the thing. 325 00:17:49,206 --> 00:17:52,214 You can say that, 326 00:17:52,214 --> 00:17:54,087 but here's the problem. 327 00:17:54,087 --> 00:17:55,937 If you were married and your husband 328 00:17:55,937 --> 00:17:59,449 was the one who was unfaithful, 329 00:17:59,449 --> 00:18:04,415 and then as you're moving forward, 330 00:18:04,415 --> 00:18:09,426 you keep finding inconsistencies with his stories, 331 00:18:09,426 --> 00:18:15,285 and instead of calling the woman a "mistress," 332 00:18:15,285 --> 00:18:20,926 he's referring to her as an ex-girlfriend. 333 00:18:20,926 --> 00:18:25,944 And his lies keep coming back 334 00:18:25,944 --> 00:18:28,134 so that the wound keeps getting re-opened. 335 00:18:28,134 --> 00:18:31,809 You wouldn't be impervious to that. 336 00:18:31,809 --> 00:18:36,728 Your trust is destroyed. 337 00:18:36,728 --> 00:18:39,271 And the thing is inconsistencies in his stories 338 00:18:39,271 --> 00:18:41,235 keep coming up. 339 00:18:41,235 --> 00:18:43,963 And he keeps referring to the woman 340 00:18:43,963 --> 00:18:49,104 in terms (incomplete thought). 341 00:18:49,104 --> 00:18:50,190 What's that? 342 00:18:50,190 --> 00:18:51,078 (from the room) 343 00:18:51,078 --> 00:18:54,249 What keeps bringing that issue up though? 344 00:18:54,249 --> 00:18:56,978 Tim: Well, it's going to come up. 345 00:18:56,978 --> 00:18:59,765 I mean, it sounds like he's speaking 346 00:18:59,765 --> 00:19:01,599 to other people about it 347 00:19:01,599 --> 00:19:03,644 and it gets back to her ears 348 00:19:03,644 --> 00:19:06,217 that he's referring to her in terms 349 00:19:06,217 --> 00:19:10,629 that seem to lessen the severity of his sin. 350 00:19:10,629 --> 00:19:12,534 And then, can you imagine 351 00:19:12,534 --> 00:19:16,238 if you're wanting to talk, 352 00:19:16,238 --> 00:19:18,338 especially when there's inconsistencies 353 00:19:18,338 --> 00:19:21,741 and you've got questions, 354 00:19:21,741 --> 00:19:23,242 and when you ask about them 355 00:19:23,242 --> 00:19:25,156 and you get upset, 356 00:19:25,156 --> 00:19:29,458 he's telling you that you're the one who's wrong. 357 00:19:29,458 --> 00:19:31,370 You're just holding on to it. 358 00:19:31,370 --> 00:19:32,563 You're crazy. 359 00:19:32,563 --> 00:19:34,590 You're still wrestling with these things. 360 00:19:34,590 --> 00:19:39,794 Get over it. 361 00:19:39,794 --> 00:19:41,556 Listen, those things would be 362 00:19:41,556 --> 00:19:47,001 incredibly hurtful and wound opening events. 363 00:19:47,001 --> 00:19:48,139 (from the room) 364 00:19:48,139 --> 00:19:50,740 It kind of reminds me of David in Psalm 55, 365 00:19:50,740 --> 00:19:52,853 some of the things he said there, 366 00:19:52,853 --> 00:19:54,825 that my companion stretched out his hand; 367 00:19:54,825 --> 00:19:56,146 he violated his covenant. 368 00:19:56,146 --> 00:19:58,808 And here this lady's marriage has been violated. 369 00:19:58,808 --> 00:20:01,217 And David felt like flying away 370 00:20:01,217 --> 00:20:02,904 from the situation, 371 00:20:02,904 --> 00:20:06,385 but ultimately cast his burden on the Lord. 372 00:20:06,385 --> 00:20:07,996 And I guess if she's determined 373 00:20:07,996 --> 00:20:09,753 to love her husband, 374 00:20:09,753 --> 00:20:12,116 all those reminders are a reminder 375 00:20:12,116 --> 00:20:14,248 ultimately to go back to Christ, 376 00:20:14,248 --> 00:20:15,984 to cast her burden on Him, 377 00:20:15,984 --> 00:20:18,406 and just plead for mercy 378 00:20:18,406 --> 00:20:19,877 and help from the Lord. 379 00:20:19,877 --> 00:20:21,405 And He's going to give that. 380 00:20:21,405 --> 00:20:22,684 And if it's getting better 381 00:20:22,684 --> 00:20:24,006 in these last two years, 382 00:20:24,006 --> 00:20:25,765 I would assume in five years, 383 00:20:25,765 --> 00:20:28,395 it's even going to be more bearable, 384 00:20:28,395 --> 00:20:29,745 better hopefully. 385 00:20:29,745 --> 00:20:32,217 Hopefully God would save her husband. 386 00:20:32,217 --> 00:20:33,804 If she's going to stay with him, 387 00:20:33,804 --> 00:20:35,305 what other option does she have 388 00:20:35,305 --> 00:20:36,573 but to rely on the Lord? 389 00:20:36,573 --> 00:20:39,452 Tim: Yeah, one of the things I wrote down 390 00:20:39,452 --> 00:20:43,217 is to encourage her to not forget 391 00:20:43,217 --> 00:20:45,097 the power of prayer 392 00:20:45,097 --> 00:20:47,590 and laying hold on the Lord 393 00:20:47,590 --> 00:20:52,218 and asking for supernatural grace. 394 00:20:52,218 --> 00:20:57,427 But here's the thing, 395 00:20:57,427 --> 00:20:59,123 there are women who navigate 396 00:20:59,123 --> 00:21:02,903 these kinds of situations 397 00:21:02,903 --> 00:21:07,759 and they navigate it to the honor and glory of the Lord. 398 00:21:07,759 --> 00:21:09,683 But I think one of the things 399 00:21:09,683 --> 00:21:12,018 that you need to navigate it 400 00:21:12,018 --> 00:21:17,485 is you have to think right. 401 00:21:17,485 --> 00:21:22,773 And you have to think truth. 402 00:21:22,773 --> 00:21:24,632 And one of the things 403 00:21:24,632 --> 00:21:27,775 is to surround yourself with people 404 00:21:27,775 --> 00:21:31,267 who are going to bring you back to the truth 405 00:21:31,267 --> 00:21:33,544 all the time. 406 00:21:33,544 --> 00:21:36,989 And I think that's being in a good church, 407 00:21:36,989 --> 00:21:39,085 surrounding yourself with people 408 00:21:39,085 --> 00:21:41,013 that truly help you. 409 00:21:41,013 --> 00:21:42,739 There are people who don't help. 410 00:21:42,739 --> 00:21:45,378 There are people who - even professing Christians 411 00:21:45,378 --> 00:21:47,535 and perhaps genuine Christians 412 00:21:47,535 --> 00:21:51,974 who give wrong advice, bad advice, 413 00:21:51,974 --> 00:21:55,053 and it's not helpful. 414 00:21:55,053 --> 00:21:56,562 It's not healing. 415 00:21:56,562 --> 00:21:59,266 You need to surround yourself with people 416 00:21:59,266 --> 00:22:02,035 who really are going to guide you into truth 417 00:22:02,035 --> 00:22:03,679 that is helpful, 418 00:22:03,679 --> 00:22:08,779 that will help you get across these hurdles. 419 00:22:08,779 --> 00:22:12,855 And they don't always need to be living people. 420 00:22:12,855 --> 00:22:15,943 One of the reasons I grabbed 421 00:22:15,943 --> 00:22:19,539 "The Sympathy of Christ," by Octavius Winslow 422 00:22:19,539 --> 00:22:26,344 off my shelf is the sympathy of Christ. 423 00:22:26,344 --> 00:22:33,977 The reality is we have a sympathetic High Priest. 424 00:22:33,977 --> 00:22:35,990 This is one of the greatest books 425 00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:41,543 that I have on my shelf for suffering people. 426 00:22:41,543 --> 00:22:45,072 Because what it does is it takes you close to Christ. 427 00:22:45,072 --> 00:22:50,222 And it shows you His suffering and His sympathy 428 00:22:50,222 --> 00:22:54,219 for the suffering. 429 00:22:54,219 --> 00:22:57,484 Because the truth is that Jesus 430 00:22:57,484 --> 00:23:01,630 has been in a place where He suffered the rejection, 431 00:23:01,630 --> 00:23:04,115 He suffered the hurt, 432 00:23:04,115 --> 00:23:09,093 He's been there. 433 00:23:09,093 --> 00:23:10,676 And I think that's critical, 434 00:23:10,676 --> 00:23:14,973 but think right. Think right. 435 00:23:14,973 --> 00:23:20,296 What we need to be called back to 436 00:23:20,296 --> 00:23:23,981 especially when we're suffering - 437 00:23:23,981 --> 00:23:26,742 (incomplete thought) 438 00:23:26,742 --> 00:23:29,284 I especially think about the Apostle Paul 439 00:23:29,284 --> 00:23:30,614 or the Apostle Peter. 440 00:23:30,614 --> 00:23:32,544 When they're dealing with people 441 00:23:32,544 --> 00:23:36,610 who are suffering, what did they do? 442 00:23:36,610 --> 00:23:39,068 They didn't say just get over it. You're crazy. 443 00:23:39,068 --> 00:23:44,745 They brought truth to appeal to the mind. 444 00:23:44,745 --> 00:23:46,326 That's what they did. 445 00:23:46,326 --> 00:23:49,899 They came in and they said look, 446 00:23:49,899 --> 00:23:51,503 we're not going to say 447 00:23:51,503 --> 00:23:54,603 your suffering isn't suffering. 448 00:23:54,603 --> 00:24:00,778 But, your suffering - it feels long, 449 00:24:00,778 --> 00:24:05,139 it feels hard - it's momentary. 450 00:24:05,139 --> 00:24:07,841 Fifty years from now, 451 00:24:07,841 --> 00:24:09,918 this sister will be with the Lord. 452 00:24:09,918 --> 00:24:13,135 She'll be in Paradise. 453 00:24:13,135 --> 00:24:16,374 Every tear will be wiped away. 454 00:24:16,374 --> 00:24:18,677 So we need to keep it in perspective. 455 00:24:18,677 --> 00:24:23,732 Momentary, light affliction is all 456 00:24:23,732 --> 00:24:26,523 that our suffering in this life is called. 457 00:24:26,523 --> 00:24:29,182 And it's going to give way, 458 00:24:29,182 --> 00:24:33,584 give place to an eternal weight of glory. 459 00:24:33,584 --> 00:24:35,584 But you think - you think. 460 00:24:35,584 --> 00:24:40,113 What truths does this woman [need?] 461 00:24:40,113 --> 00:24:43,081 Obviously, the truths of the cross. 462 00:24:43,081 --> 00:24:47,390 The truths of God's forgiveness of her. 463 00:24:47,390 --> 00:24:53,003 That's got to be the foundation. 464 00:24:53,003 --> 00:24:55,080 I'm forgiven. 465 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,865 After what I've done, I'm forgiven. 466 00:24:57,865 --> 00:25:03,084 After what I've done to Him, I'm forgiven. 467 00:25:03,084 --> 00:25:07,672 Another thing that is essential 468 00:25:07,672 --> 00:25:13,288 is coming back to the truth, 469 00:25:13,288 --> 00:25:15,749 God has promised 470 00:25:15,749 --> 00:25:17,982 to never leave us or forsake us. 471 00:25:17,982 --> 00:25:19,782 Because you know what the temptation 472 00:25:19,782 --> 00:25:20,735 in trial is. 473 00:25:20,735 --> 00:25:22,333 The devil's right there to say, 474 00:25:22,333 --> 00:25:24,569 "Look, God's vacated. 475 00:25:24,569 --> 00:25:25,694 You're on your own. 476 00:25:25,694 --> 00:25:27,584 He's not helping you. He's silent. 477 00:25:27,584 --> 00:25:29,895 You're praying to Him? 478 00:25:29,895 --> 00:25:32,149 This isn't going away. 479 00:25:32,149 --> 00:25:35,067 He's not hearing you." 480 00:25:35,067 --> 00:25:37,216 And I know Charles Leiter has said 481 00:25:37,216 --> 00:25:40,239 that the Gardener is never so close 482 00:25:40,239 --> 00:25:41,938 as when He's pruning. 483 00:25:41,938 --> 00:25:43,857 And I've come across it somewhere else, 484 00:25:43,857 --> 00:25:45,542 maybe Matthew Henry, 485 00:25:45,542 --> 00:25:49,598 that the Refiner is never so close to the gold... 486 00:25:49,598 --> 00:25:51,133 You could speak to that. 487 00:25:51,133 --> 00:25:53,010 I mean, you put the silver and gold 488 00:25:53,010 --> 00:25:54,170 in the kiln. 489 00:25:54,170 --> 00:25:56,888 You're not far away 490 00:25:56,888 --> 00:26:00,304 when the gold's cooking in the kiln, 491 00:26:00,304 --> 00:26:03,642 and you're getting the impurities out. 492 00:26:03,642 --> 00:26:05,423 And that's the reality. 493 00:26:05,423 --> 00:26:08,248 What we have to be brought back to is this, 494 00:26:08,248 --> 00:26:17,224 that God is specifically ordering my suffering. 495 00:26:17,224 --> 00:26:20,864 We have to be confident in that. 496 00:26:20,864 --> 00:26:25,962 Otherwise, we have no foundation to stand on. 497 00:26:25,962 --> 00:26:31,311 We have to be able to say 498 00:26:31,311 --> 00:26:34,962 all things are indeed working together for my good. 499 00:26:34,962 --> 00:26:37,350 I have to believe in a God 500 00:26:37,350 --> 00:26:42,941 that is entirely in control 501 00:26:42,941 --> 00:26:47,118 of every nuance of my life, 502 00:26:47,118 --> 00:26:49,090 and that He's guiding. 503 00:26:49,090 --> 00:26:50,854 And that He is the God Who says 504 00:26:50,854 --> 00:26:53,062 He does not willingly afflict the sons of men. 505 00:26:53,062 --> 00:26:54,705 What does that mean? It's the idea 506 00:26:54,705 --> 00:26:56,252 that He doesn't from the heart. 507 00:26:56,252 --> 00:26:58,246 He doesn't because He's cruel. 508 00:26:58,246 --> 00:27:02,762 Now look, He's a God Who's just. 509 00:27:02,762 --> 00:27:05,253 But there's sensitivity with God. 510 00:27:05,253 --> 00:27:09,509 I mean, you definitely get the idea in Scripture, 511 00:27:09,509 --> 00:27:13,030 God does not need to have His arm twisted 512 00:27:13,030 --> 00:27:15,033 to show mercy. 513 00:27:15,033 --> 00:27:18,794 It seems more difficult for Him to mete out justice. 514 00:27:18,794 --> 00:27:23,301 But entirely consistent with His character, 515 00:27:23,301 --> 00:27:26,492 He must. 516 00:27:26,492 --> 00:27:29,412 But just the idea that He's not willing 517 00:27:29,412 --> 00:27:31,962 to afflict the sons of men. 518 00:27:31,962 --> 00:27:35,451 It's this idea that God is going to bring 519 00:27:35,451 --> 00:27:39,148 the suffering that's for our good. 520 00:27:39,148 --> 00:27:44,240 I'd tell her you don't want to use your mouth like that 521 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,172 with your husband. 522 00:27:46,172 --> 00:27:48,522 You don't want any profanity to come out. 523 00:27:48,522 --> 00:27:49,522 That's wrong. 524 00:27:49,522 --> 00:27:53,180 No matter what he's done, that's wrong. 525 00:27:53,180 --> 00:27:58,521 And she talks about the repenting that she does, 526 00:27:58,521 --> 00:28:01,033 but it really needs to be the kind of repenting 527 00:28:01,033 --> 00:28:05,829 where she eliminates that from her life totally. 528 00:28:05,829 --> 00:28:07,768 She needs that. 529 00:28:07,768 --> 00:28:09,486 There needs to be a real holiness 530 00:28:09,486 --> 00:28:11,069 being worked out there 531 00:28:11,069 --> 00:28:12,242 in the fear of God. 532 00:28:12,242 --> 00:28:14,610 There needs to be a cleansing. 533 00:28:14,610 --> 00:28:17,811 The tongue needs to be set in order. 534 00:28:17,811 --> 00:28:19,752 And she needs the grace. 535 00:28:19,752 --> 00:28:22,290 Just because her husband may be 536 00:28:22,290 --> 00:28:24,631 reopening the wound and triggers may come, 537 00:28:24,631 --> 00:28:29,067 that is no excuse for her to do that. 538 00:28:29,067 --> 00:28:31,795 I mean, we understand the circumstances 539 00:28:31,795 --> 00:28:33,500 and that it's really difficult. 540 00:28:33,500 --> 00:28:36,568 We're not saying it isn't difficult. 541 00:28:36,568 --> 00:28:37,859 It is. 542 00:28:37,859 --> 00:28:42,586 She's in an incredibly difficult situation. 543 00:28:42,586 --> 00:28:44,458 I mean, do you ladies have anything 544 00:28:44,458 --> 00:28:49,504 that you would add that you would tell her? 545 00:28:49,504 --> 00:28:50,440 (from the room) 546 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,065 I was just going to ask 547 00:28:52,065 --> 00:28:53,564 on a practical level. 548 00:28:53,564 --> 00:28:57,942 Is there a time when godly counsel 549 00:28:57,942 --> 00:29:03,964 is to go seek help from elders, 550 00:29:03,964 --> 00:29:05,803 from people in your church, 551 00:29:05,803 --> 00:29:10,049 to counsel the two of them together 552 00:29:10,049 --> 00:29:14,404 if he saying that he has repented 553 00:29:14,404 --> 00:29:15,763 and has turned from that, 554 00:29:15,763 --> 00:29:18,784 but there are signs that maybe that is not true. 555 00:29:18,784 --> 00:29:21,130 Is there a time when it's not just dealt 556 00:29:21,130 --> 00:29:25,188 with the two of them, they need to go out? 557 00:29:25,188 --> 00:29:28,186 Like within their body? 558 00:29:28,186 --> 00:29:33,088 Tim: Yes, I mean, definitely counseling. 559 00:29:33,088 --> 00:29:37,093 Definitely whether that's pastoral counseling 560 00:29:37,093 --> 00:29:38,913 with the pastors 561 00:29:38,913 --> 00:29:41,561 or whether there's some kind of counseling 562 00:29:41,561 --> 00:29:46,143 with a counselor, 563 00:29:46,143 --> 00:29:48,871 if both of them can be involved, 564 00:29:48,871 --> 00:29:51,364 that's definitely a good place. 565 00:29:51,364 --> 00:29:54,773 My assumption in this 566 00:29:54,773 --> 00:29:56,226 is that you have a husband 567 00:29:56,226 --> 00:30:00,567 that's professing to have repented 568 00:30:00,567 --> 00:30:02,665 and he feels like now he's actually 569 00:30:02,665 --> 00:30:06,774 even reached some state of perfection or something. 570 00:30:06,774 --> 00:30:10,667 The feeling I get is he probably 571 00:30:10,667 --> 00:30:13,140 isn't a genuine Christian. 572 00:30:13,140 --> 00:30:14,489 Now, that still doesn't mean 573 00:30:14,489 --> 00:30:17,181 that there couldn't be some good things 574 00:30:17,181 --> 00:30:22,075 achieved if you can get them both into counseling. 575 00:30:22,075 --> 00:30:29,879 But that would be good if he's willing to do that. 576 00:30:29,879 --> 00:30:31,884 But sometimes I guess we just 577 00:30:31,884 --> 00:30:36,144 have to recognize 578 00:30:36,144 --> 00:30:41,415 that a guy like this might not be willing. 579 00:30:41,415 --> 00:30:43,728 Without knowing the real details there, 580 00:30:43,728 --> 00:30:44,960 he might not be willing, 581 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,092 or even if he was willing for a time to go, 582 00:30:48,092 --> 00:30:49,987 if he's not genuinely converted, 583 00:30:49,987 --> 00:30:52,991 difficult to know how much fruit there may be. 584 00:30:52,991 --> 00:30:55,650 Sometimes in these situations 585 00:30:55,650 --> 00:30:57,312 if you've got one that's converted 586 00:30:57,312 --> 00:30:59,878 and the other one it's pretty obvious they're not, 587 00:30:59,878 --> 00:31:05,984 you really have to focus in on the one that's saved 588 00:31:05,984 --> 00:31:07,760 to do the right thing. 589 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,664 Because if the lost member, 590 00:31:09,664 --> 00:31:11,707 even if they're going to counseling, 591 00:31:11,707 --> 00:31:14,078 they just lack the equipment 592 00:31:14,078 --> 00:31:19,022 to handle this thing in a godly fashion. 593 00:31:19,022 --> 00:31:20,747 And perhaps they even need to be 594 00:31:20,747 --> 00:31:26,407 dealt with about their false profession. 595 00:31:26,407 --> 00:31:30,490 And the thing is if the Lord's in it, 596 00:31:30,490 --> 00:31:32,801 then yeah, you'll get wonderful fruit, 597 00:31:32,801 --> 00:31:34,508 because if God saves him, 598 00:31:34,508 --> 00:31:38,264 then the thing will really heal. 599 00:31:38,264 --> 00:31:40,767 But if the Lord isn't in it, 600 00:31:40,767 --> 00:31:43,204 dealing with him like that is probably 601 00:31:43,204 --> 00:31:46,341 going to chase him away from the counseling. 602 00:31:46,341 --> 00:31:48,501 And he will all the more quickly 603 00:31:48,501 --> 00:31:51,435 not want to be involved. 604 00:31:51,435 --> 00:31:53,170 Somebody had a hand up just now. 605 00:31:53,170 --> 00:31:54,382 (from the room) 606 00:31:54,382 --> 00:31:56,639 I was just thinking that she might also 607 00:31:56,639 --> 00:31:58,339 still be dwelling on it because 608 00:31:58,339 --> 00:32:03,467 he did not confess - he got caught. 609 00:32:03,467 --> 00:32:04,875 So that could be something 610 00:32:04,875 --> 00:32:09,900 that she's still thinking about. 611 00:32:09,900 --> 00:32:12,752 Tim: Yeah, she's going to play it over and over in her mind. 612 00:32:12,752 --> 00:32:15,426 And I'll guarantee, we view things 613 00:32:15,426 --> 00:32:17,459 as elders in the church like that. 614 00:32:17,459 --> 00:32:20,429 We take very much into consideration 615 00:32:20,429 --> 00:32:22,572 when sin is exposed - 616 00:32:22,572 --> 00:32:24,260 did they get caught? 617 00:32:24,260 --> 00:32:29,251 Or did they come and confess? 618 00:32:29,251 --> 00:32:31,659 So often when people get caught, 619 00:32:31,659 --> 00:32:34,021 then they say, "Oh, I repent." 620 00:32:34,021 --> 00:32:37,113 Well, now it's very questionable. 621 00:32:37,113 --> 00:32:38,550 Now you got caught. 622 00:32:38,550 --> 00:32:43,851 You were forced to now play the part. 623 00:32:43,851 --> 00:32:46,663 So yes, I think any woman, 624 00:32:46,663 --> 00:32:49,466 that would be a big issue. 625 00:32:49,466 --> 00:32:54,600 That yeah, he didn't come and confess this to me. 626 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,641 He got caught. 627 00:32:56,641 --> 00:33:00,011 And then the thing that it seems like 628 00:33:00,011 --> 00:33:01,461 she's bringing out - 629 00:33:01,461 --> 00:33:02,750 because we've seen this. 630 00:33:02,750 --> 00:33:04,570 We see this with sin. 631 00:33:04,570 --> 00:33:07,491 A person gets caught. 632 00:33:07,491 --> 00:33:11,282 Now they confess, but later 633 00:33:11,282 --> 00:33:12,856 it becomes discovered 634 00:33:12,856 --> 00:33:15,450 that they didn't confess everything. 635 00:33:15,450 --> 00:33:17,931 And now you confront them with the more. 636 00:33:17,931 --> 00:33:19,867 Well, now they confess it. 637 00:33:19,867 --> 00:33:21,835 And now they apparently repent of that. 638 00:33:21,835 --> 00:33:25,190 But you can understand if you're a wife, 639 00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:27,347 and it seems like he's repented, 640 00:33:27,347 --> 00:33:29,269 but new things keep coming up 641 00:33:29,269 --> 00:33:31,968 that it's very convenient he never mentioned. 642 00:33:31,968 --> 00:33:34,391 The thing you're looking for when somebody repents 643 00:33:34,391 --> 00:33:36,409 is you just lay it all out on the table 644 00:33:36,409 --> 00:33:38,108 so that there's nothing hidden, 645 00:33:38,108 --> 00:33:40,349 nothing more that's going to come out. 646 00:33:40,349 --> 00:33:43,301 It's just there it all is. 647 00:33:43,301 --> 00:33:45,124 I'm not hiding anything. 648 00:33:45,124 --> 00:33:47,772 Because yes, as soon as you've got the idea, 649 00:33:47,772 --> 00:33:49,404 he got caught and he's only 650 00:33:49,404 --> 00:33:51,121 admitting what he got caught for 651 00:33:51,121 --> 00:33:52,720 and we keep finding out 652 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,823 there's more stuff that's hidden. 653 00:33:54,823 --> 00:33:56,954 That's one of the greatest indications 654 00:33:56,954 --> 00:34:00,713 that there is no genuine aspect 655 00:34:00,713 --> 00:34:02,188 to the repentance. 656 00:34:02,188 --> 00:34:06,664 It's all a put on. 657 00:34:06,664 --> 00:34:07,632 (from the room) 658 00:34:07,632 --> 00:34:09,803 I also have a thought, 659 00:34:09,803 --> 00:34:12,265 in the first letter she talked a lot about 660 00:34:12,265 --> 00:34:14,323 his response and that at times 661 00:34:14,323 --> 00:34:17,882 still referring to her as ex-girlfriend 662 00:34:17,882 --> 00:34:19,940 and/or not disclosing everything, 663 00:34:19,940 --> 00:34:22,528 but in the next letter, she was like, 664 00:34:22,528 --> 00:34:24,855 it hasn't all been bad. 665 00:34:24,855 --> 00:34:27,803 There have been times where I have had 666 00:34:27,803 --> 00:34:30,657 him listen to my concerns. 667 00:34:30,657 --> 00:34:32,599 So it just made me think of when 668 00:34:32,599 --> 00:34:35,276 in 1 Peter it's talking about suffering 669 00:34:35,276 --> 00:34:38,813 and her desire to actually walk 670 00:34:38,813 --> 00:34:41,020 pleasing to the Lord in that manner. 671 00:34:41,020 --> 00:34:43,875 And in knowing her weaknesses, 672 00:34:43,875 --> 00:34:45,513 knowing that there's triggers, 673 00:34:45,513 --> 00:34:48,098 knowing that the devil's going to be right there 674 00:34:48,098 --> 00:34:50,264 to tempt her in those weaknesses, 675 00:34:50,264 --> 00:34:55,509 just what it says in 1 Peter 5:6, 676 00:34:55,509 --> 00:34:56,884 "Humble yourselves therefore 677 00:34:56,884 --> 00:34:58,370 under the mighty hand of God 678 00:34:58,370 --> 00:34:59,740 so that at the proper time 679 00:34:59,740 --> 00:35:01,058 He may exalt you, 680 00:35:01,058 --> 00:35:03,327 casting all your anxieties on Him 681 00:35:03,327 --> 00:35:04,682 because He cares for you." 682 00:35:04,682 --> 00:35:06,252 And then this part where it says, 683 00:35:06,252 --> 00:35:08,172 "be sober-minded, 684 00:35:08,172 --> 00:35:09,192 be watchful. 685 00:35:09,192 --> 00:35:11,839 Your adversary, the devil, prowls around 686 00:35:11,839 --> 00:35:13,344 like a roaring lion 687 00:35:13,344 --> 00:35:15,220 seeking someone to devour. 688 00:35:15,220 --> 00:35:17,707 Resist him, firm in your faith, 689 00:35:17,707 --> 00:35:19,875 knowing that the same kinds of sufferings 690 00:35:19,875 --> 00:35:21,229 are being experienced 691 00:35:21,229 --> 00:35:23,142 by your brotherhood throughout the world 692 00:35:23,142 --> 00:35:25,200 and after you have suffered a little while, 693 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,057 the God of all grace Who has called you 694 00:35:27,057 --> 00:35:28,936 to His eternal glory in Christ 695 00:35:28,936 --> 00:35:31,135 will Himself restore, confirm, 696 00:35:31,135 --> 00:35:33,129 strengthen, and establish you. 697 00:35:33,129 --> 00:35:36,713 To Him be the dominion forever and ever, amen." 698 00:35:36,713 --> 00:35:40,523 So it seems like she wants to fight against it 699 00:35:40,523 --> 00:35:42,913 and just trusting in those things 700 00:35:42,913 --> 00:35:46,537 and God's enabled her to fight against it 701 00:35:46,537 --> 00:35:48,393 and to humble herself before Him 702 00:35:48,393 --> 00:35:51,096 and to cast her anxieties on Him 703 00:35:51,096 --> 00:35:52,567 in this season. 704 00:35:52,567 --> 00:35:55,245 It seems like she recognizes 705 00:35:55,245 --> 00:35:57,579 that things are getting a little bit better. 706 00:35:57,579 --> 00:36:06,409 She's enduring and trusting more. 707 00:36:06,415 --> 00:36:08,745 Tim: I'll tell you two other aspects of this 708 00:36:08,745 --> 00:36:12,052 that if she's rightly communicating it 709 00:36:12,052 --> 00:36:15,907 that are pretty good indicators 710 00:36:15,907 --> 00:36:21,152 that his repentance is 711 00:36:21,152 --> 00:36:23,923 not a godly repentance. 712 00:36:23,923 --> 00:36:25,944 He may have stepped away from this 713 00:36:25,944 --> 00:36:28,044 and he wants to preserve his marriage, 714 00:36:28,044 --> 00:36:31,307 but a good indication it's not godly repentance - 715 00:36:31,307 --> 00:36:32,986 two aspects that jump out at me 716 00:36:32,986 --> 00:36:39,373 is one, if a man sins against his wife that way, 717 00:36:39,373 --> 00:36:43,587 and he knows that calling that girl 718 00:36:43,587 --> 00:36:47,704 an ex-girlfriend just does not 719 00:36:47,704 --> 00:36:49,780 sit well with her, 720 00:36:49,780 --> 00:36:52,713 he should never do it again. 721 00:36:52,713 --> 00:36:54,783 Another thing that jumps out 722 00:36:54,783 --> 00:36:58,584 is that he would ever fault her 723 00:36:58,584 --> 00:37:01,466 for not getting over it. 724 00:37:01,466 --> 00:37:03,200 After what he's done, 725 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,806 his approach should be one of shame, 726 00:37:07,806 --> 00:37:11,635 not fault-finding with her. 727 00:37:11,635 --> 00:37:16,537 So you can understand 728 00:37:16,537 --> 00:37:18,892 that those things would definitely 729 00:37:18,892 --> 00:37:27,883 reopen the wounds and be hurtful. 730 00:37:27,883 --> 00:37:33,017 But the thing is, you have to trust, 731 00:37:33,017 --> 00:37:37,223 yes, the wound keeps getting reopened, 732 00:37:37,223 --> 00:37:39,305 but the Lord's only going to let that wound 733 00:37:39,305 --> 00:37:44,177 be reopened as many times as is necessary. 734 00:37:44,177 --> 00:37:48,913 Never so often that it's cruel. 735 00:37:48,913 --> 00:37:52,456 Never so often as that it's harmful. 736 00:37:52,456 --> 00:37:55,519 He's going to let it happen 737 00:37:55,519 --> 00:37:59,359 as many times as it's useful. 738 00:37:59,359 --> 00:38:01,242 And clearly, she's indicating 739 00:38:01,242 --> 00:38:06,058 that there are some things that do need 740 00:38:06,058 --> 00:38:12,189 to be dredged up out of her own life. 741 00:38:12,189 --> 00:38:16,642 But it's very difficult. 742 00:38:16,642 --> 00:38:17,763 (from the room) 743 00:38:17,763 --> 00:38:21,587 If he continued to refer to the woman 744 00:38:21,587 --> 00:38:23,340 as an ex-girlfriend 745 00:38:23,340 --> 00:38:27,782 and continued in that disrespect to her 746 00:38:27,782 --> 00:38:34,154 as his wife, 747 00:38:34,154 --> 00:38:36,467 would we call her to continue 748 00:38:36,467 --> 00:38:39,709 to endure the struggle? 749 00:38:39,709 --> 00:38:41,894 Or do you think at that point, 750 00:38:41,894 --> 00:38:45,646 like it's an intentional harm towards her 751 00:38:45,646 --> 00:38:46,752 by her husband? 752 00:38:46,752 --> 00:38:48,587 Tim: Well, I don't think it's grounds 753 00:38:48,587 --> 00:38:50,305 to try to get out of the marriage. 754 00:38:50,305 --> 00:38:53,367 I think she needs to fight for this marriage. 755 00:38:53,367 --> 00:38:57,685 And like I say, I think all the more she's able 756 00:38:57,685 --> 00:38:59,425 even with him reopening wounds, 757 00:38:59,425 --> 00:39:02,021 all the more she's able to forgive him, 758 00:39:02,021 --> 00:39:05,943 is all the more Christlike she comes across. 759 00:39:05,943 --> 00:39:08,552 And you know, the truth is 760 00:39:08,552 --> 00:39:14,575 that 1 Peter 3 reality of seeking to win him 761 00:39:14,575 --> 00:39:16,352 by her conduct. 762 00:39:16,352 --> 00:39:18,102 And I guarantee, 763 00:39:18,102 --> 00:39:24,202 her throwing a blast of profanity at him 764 00:39:24,202 --> 00:39:26,421 does not help. 765 00:39:26,421 --> 00:39:28,053 It doesn't help anything. 766 00:39:28,053 --> 00:39:29,278 It doesn't help her. 767 00:39:29,278 --> 00:39:30,742 It doesn't help heal it. 768 00:39:30,742 --> 00:39:32,311 It doesn't help him. 769 00:39:32,311 --> 00:39:34,727 In no way does it help anything. 770 00:39:34,727 --> 00:39:38,370 But if she navigates this thing 771 00:39:38,370 --> 00:39:40,152 with the help of God, 772 00:39:40,152 --> 00:39:41,756 with the grace of God - 773 00:39:41,756 --> 00:39:44,159 and that's like, after what James said, 774 00:39:44,159 --> 00:39:46,028 I have it here - 775 00:39:46,028 --> 00:39:48,791 don't underestimate the power of prayer. 776 00:39:48,791 --> 00:39:52,242 Don't underestimate the thing that seems 777 00:39:52,242 --> 00:39:55,554 so impossible to let go of or to forgive 778 00:39:55,554 --> 00:39:57,830 or to get over, 779 00:39:57,830 --> 00:40:01,601 the Lord has helped His people 780 00:40:01,601 --> 00:40:05,743 to get over and past every one of those kinds of situations. 781 00:40:05,743 --> 00:40:07,808 And there is grace sufficient. 782 00:40:07,808 --> 00:40:10,801 And people who have experienced it 783 00:40:10,801 --> 00:40:19,129 can say at times, there is a supernatural help from God 784 00:40:19,129 --> 00:40:25,887 to forgive or to be able to cover over 785 00:40:25,887 --> 00:40:29,379 or to love. 786 00:40:29,379 --> 00:40:32,584 I was just recently talking about 787 00:40:32,584 --> 00:40:35,841 the Wurmbrand book that was selling for a dollar, 788 00:40:35,841 --> 00:40:37,280 "Tortured for Christ." 789 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:38,748 You know, when they were in 790 00:40:38,748 --> 00:40:40,820 those Romanian prisons, 791 00:40:40,820 --> 00:40:44,801 the more their captors beat them, 792 00:40:44,801 --> 00:40:47,265 the more love they felt for the jailers. 793 00:40:47,265 --> 00:40:49,958 It's the guy whipping them, 794 00:40:49,958 --> 00:40:52,001 with every stroke of the whip, 795 00:40:52,001 --> 00:40:54,400 they're feeling greater love 796 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,472 for the guy whipping them. 797 00:40:56,472 --> 00:40:58,271 How is that? 798 00:40:58,271 --> 00:41:01,581 It's just plain supernatural. 799 00:41:01,581 --> 00:41:04,236 But God's in the business of helping His people, 800 00:41:04,236 --> 00:41:08,468 so you cast your cares on Him. 801 00:41:08,468 --> 00:41:09,843 There's a place to come: 802 00:41:09,843 --> 00:41:13,434 Lord, please, he keeps reopening the wound. 803 00:41:13,434 --> 00:41:14,860 You know that he is. 804 00:41:14,860 --> 00:41:17,522 You know this hurts, Lord. 805 00:41:17,522 --> 00:41:21,398 You don't expect it not to hurt. 806 00:41:21,398 --> 00:41:24,284 I need help. Lord, I need help. 807 00:41:24,284 --> 00:41:29,085 In my own strength, I cannot do this. 808 00:41:29,085 --> 00:41:33,552 You just cast yourself on Him. 809 00:41:33,552 --> 00:41:35,709 And the thing is He helps His people. 810 00:41:35,709 --> 00:41:37,913 He really does. 811 00:41:37,913 --> 00:41:39,382 There's help for her. 812 00:41:39,382 --> 00:41:41,949 And I think she's experiencing some of that help. 813 00:41:41,949 --> 00:41:43,962 But I think there's areas 814 00:41:43,962 --> 00:41:48,919 where there's still defilement 815 00:41:48,919 --> 00:41:54,416 in her own life that needs to be cleansed. 816 00:41:54,416 --> 00:41:57,892 She needs to control her tongue. 817 00:41:57,892 --> 00:42:00,545 And that doesn't seem like it's in place, 818 00:42:00,545 --> 00:42:03,009 not if she's letting loose 819 00:42:03,009 --> 00:42:12,988 with a flurry of profanity. 820 00:42:12,988 --> 00:42:19,815 Well, anything else? 821 00:42:19,815 --> 00:42:21,007 (from the room) 822 00:42:21,007 --> 00:42:22,719 I would say to her 823 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:24,751 to just exhaust every avenue 824 00:42:24,751 --> 00:42:27,376 of overcoming it with love 825 00:42:27,376 --> 00:42:31,643 and persistence in prayer with the Lord. 826 00:42:31,643 --> 00:42:33,533 Because the Lord will give you peace 827 00:42:33,533 --> 00:42:36,514 to left or right if you're in prayer about it. 828 00:42:36,514 --> 00:42:39,295 The fear of the Lord overcomes you 829 00:42:39,295 --> 00:42:42,063 and will convict you of the things 830 00:42:42,063 --> 00:42:43,571 spoken out of turn 831 00:42:43,571 --> 00:42:46,548 or if you made a frown when you're offended. 832 00:42:46,548 --> 00:42:48,978 The Lord will convict them right there. 833 00:42:48,978 --> 00:42:52,046 The sanctifying even in that suffering 834 00:42:52,046 --> 00:42:58,138 is good for the offended or the spouse. 835 00:42:58,138 --> 00:43:01,241 And also, in the care of the Lord, 836 00:43:01,241 --> 00:43:03,965 He will direct when the time is to move on. 837 00:43:03,965 --> 00:43:08,376 Because it won't be the Christian's desire to move on. 838 00:43:08,376 --> 00:43:12,930 But it will be the Lord's will. 839 00:43:12,930 --> 00:43:19,198 Tim: Yeah, on that note. 840 00:43:19,198 --> 00:43:21,261 This is from the chapter, 841 00:43:21,261 --> 00:43:23,964 "The Emotion of Love in Christ." 842 00:43:23,964 --> 00:43:26,872 "How little do we know experimentally 843 00:43:26,872 --> 00:43:30,860 of the love of Christ in our souls 844 00:43:30,860 --> 00:43:34,851 dislodging slavish fear, 845 00:43:34,851 --> 00:43:37,682 a bondage spirit, unbelieving doubt, 846 00:43:37,682 --> 00:43:39,868 and so enlarging our hearts that we may 847 00:43:39,868 --> 00:43:43,380 run the way of the Lord's commandments. 848 00:43:43,380 --> 00:43:45,721 And the chiefest is to love. 849 00:43:45,721 --> 00:43:49,763 Bring your heart with its profoundest emptiness, 850 00:43:49,763 --> 00:43:52,811 its most startling discovery of sin, 851 00:43:52,811 --> 00:43:55,570 its lowest frame, its deepest sorrow, 852 00:43:55,570 --> 00:43:57,829 and sink it into the depths 853 00:43:57,829 --> 00:44:00,309 of the Savior's love. 854 00:44:00,309 --> 00:44:03,845 That infinite sea will flow over all, 855 00:44:03,845 --> 00:44:06,946 erase all, absorb all, 856 00:44:06,946 --> 00:44:10,065 and your soul shall swim and sport 857 00:44:10,065 --> 00:44:12,723 amid its gentle waves, 858 00:44:12,723 --> 00:44:15,612 exclaiming in your joy and transport, 859 00:44:15,612 --> 00:44:18,107 'O the depths...' 860 00:44:18,107 --> 00:44:20,549 The Lord direct your heart 861 00:44:20,549 --> 00:44:22,596 into the love of God. 862 00:44:22,596 --> 00:44:25,042 Just as it is hard, cold, fickle, 863 00:44:25,042 --> 00:44:28,201 sinful, sad, and sorrowful, 864 00:44:28,201 --> 00:44:30,529 Christ's love touching your hard heart 865 00:44:30,529 --> 00:44:32,290 will dissolve it. 866 00:44:32,290 --> 00:44:34,370 Touching your cold heart will warm it. 867 00:44:34,370 --> 00:44:36,432 Touching your sinful heart will purify it. 868 00:44:36,432 --> 00:44:39,681 Touching your sorrowful heart will soothe it. 869 00:44:39,681 --> 00:44:42,233 Touching your wandering heart 870 00:44:42,233 --> 00:44:44,871 will draw it back to Jesus. 871 00:44:44,871 --> 00:44:49,194 Only bring your heart to Christ's love. 872 00:44:49,194 --> 00:44:51,689 Believe in its existence, its reality, 873 00:44:51,689 --> 00:44:54,572 its fullness, its freeness. 874 00:44:54,572 --> 00:44:56,572 Believe that He loves you 875 00:44:56,572 --> 00:44:59,858 and just as love begets love, 876 00:44:59,858 --> 00:45:02,463 so the simple belief in the love of Jesus 877 00:45:02,463 --> 00:45:04,254 will inspire you with a reflected 878 00:45:04,254 --> 00:45:07,093 responsive affection 879 00:45:07,093 --> 00:45:09,038 and your soul like the chrysalis 880 00:45:09,038 --> 00:45:12,212 will burst from its captivity and gloom 881 00:45:12,212 --> 00:45:14,779 and soaring in life, liberty, and beauty 882 00:45:14,779 --> 00:45:17,605 will float in the sunbeams of God's full, 883 00:45:17,605 --> 00:45:19,758 free, and eternal love. 884 00:45:19,758 --> 00:45:21,950 And in a little while, will find itself 885 00:45:21,950 --> 00:45:26,636 in Heaven where all is love." 886 00:45:26,636 --> 00:45:29,600 And she should buy this book. 887 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,358 Seriously. 888 00:45:32,358 --> 00:45:35,554 For people who are deeply suffering, 889 00:45:35,554 --> 00:45:39,611 like I say, Octavius Winslow. 890 00:45:39,611 --> 00:45:42,590 One of the greatest books - 891 00:45:42,590 --> 00:45:47,048 balm for the suffering soul. 892 00:45:47,048 --> 00:45:49,157 Well, let's pray. 893 00:45:49,157 --> 00:45:52,281 Father, we pray that there might be help 894 00:45:52,281 --> 00:45:53,932 for some folks in the things 895 00:45:53,932 --> 00:45:57,266 that were said tonight. 896 00:45:57,266 --> 00:45:59,642 Lord, we pray that You'd use this 897 00:45:59,642 --> 00:46:02,794 in some people's lives for good, 898 00:46:02,794 --> 00:46:05,390 for Your glory, for healing, 899 00:46:05,390 --> 00:46:10,095 for salvation, for help. 900 00:46:10,095 --> 00:46:11,700 Lord, we pray that Your kindness, 901 00:46:11,700 --> 00:46:14,900 that this love that Octavius Winslow speaks about, 902 00:46:14,900 --> 00:46:17,991 oh, Lord, may we know more about it. 903 00:46:17,991 --> 00:46:19,356 Help us to know it 904 00:46:19,356 --> 00:46:22,480 and to swim in the depths of it. 905 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,385 Help this sister, who, Lord, 906 00:46:26,385 --> 00:46:28,628 You've put her in the furnace. 907 00:46:28,628 --> 00:46:30,679 We pray that she would know 908 00:46:30,679 --> 00:46:34,588 the cleansing, purifying grace of God 909 00:46:34,588 --> 00:46:38,167 in the midst of those flames. 910 00:46:38,167 --> 00:46:39,436 Help her to endure. 911 00:46:39,436 --> 00:46:40,938 Help her to persevere. 912 00:46:40,938 --> 00:46:44,436 Help her to love her husband 913 00:46:44,436 --> 00:46:47,001 with the love that only You can give.