1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:10,179 This is from Jeremy. 2 00:00:10,179 --> 00:00:11,597 He puts in the subject line: 3 00:00:11,597 --> 00:00:15,030 "I'm often confused when I see people 4 00:00:15,030 --> 00:00:18,062 who seem to have good theology 5 00:00:18,062 --> 00:00:22,987 but partner up in ministry with people 6 00:00:22,987 --> 00:00:26,842 that some deem heretical." 7 00:00:26,842 --> 00:00:32,392 So this is one of the guilt by association 8 00:00:32,392 --> 00:00:35,259 kinds of questions. 9 00:00:35,259 --> 00:00:39,736 Should I fellowship with somebody 10 00:00:39,736 --> 00:00:43,939 who has a friendship 11 00:00:43,939 --> 00:00:46,286 or some involvement with 12 00:00:46,286 --> 00:00:49,689 or a ministry with somebody 13 00:00:49,689 --> 00:00:53,414 who I would deem heretical? 14 00:00:53,414 --> 00:00:55,474 And so classic examples - 15 00:00:55,474 --> 00:00:57,554 there's probably many. 16 00:00:57,554 --> 00:01:02,887 But I guess a common one that comes up, 17 00:01:02,887 --> 00:01:05,008 several years ago, 18 00:01:05,008 --> 00:01:11,605 John Piper - 19 00:01:11,605 --> 00:01:13,784 Mark Driscoll was one that I think 20 00:01:13,784 --> 00:01:16,543 he had on his platform. 21 00:01:16,543 --> 00:01:18,449 Rick Warren was another one 22 00:01:18,449 --> 00:01:20,462 that he had invited out. 23 00:01:20,462 --> 00:01:25,535 I think they actually videoed that to the conference. 24 00:01:25,535 --> 00:01:28,402 I don't think Warren actually went there. 25 00:01:28,402 --> 00:01:29,800 He was supposed to. 26 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:31,421 But it's things like that. 27 00:01:31,421 --> 00:01:34,252 Okay, should we raise eyebrows 28 00:01:34,252 --> 00:01:39,445 at John Piper if he does something like that? 29 00:01:39,445 --> 00:01:42,344 There's numerous - we could go on. 30 00:01:42,344 --> 00:01:47,619 Let's get to his actual question here. 31 00:01:47,619 --> 00:01:49,452 "Hello, Tim. I'm not really sure 32 00:01:49,452 --> 00:01:52,628 what the biblical action is when it comes 33 00:01:52,628 --> 00:01:55,254 to secondary separation. 34 00:01:55,254 --> 00:01:59,680 If there is a person (person A) 35 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,081 who is associating with a person (person B) 36 00:02:03,081 --> 00:02:04,930 who has bad theology 37 00:02:04,930 --> 00:02:07,505 or is even a false prophet, 38 00:02:07,505 --> 00:02:13,906 should we separate from person A?" 39 00:02:13,906 --> 00:02:15,808 This is practical 40 00:02:15,808 --> 00:02:17,529 especially in this day. 41 00:02:17,529 --> 00:02:19,076 You know, there was a day, 42 00:02:19,076 --> 00:02:21,049 it's very likely the only preachers 43 00:02:21,049 --> 00:02:22,566 you would have been exposed to 44 00:02:22,566 --> 00:02:24,925 is the pastor in your own pulpit. 45 00:02:24,925 --> 00:02:27,725 Maybe some others in your local vicinity. 46 00:02:27,725 --> 00:02:34,573 But we were limited at one time. 47 00:02:34,573 --> 00:02:36,426 We're not limited now. 48 00:02:36,426 --> 00:02:37,979 We're in the information age 49 00:02:37,979 --> 00:02:40,185 and with our technology, we are bombarded 50 00:02:40,185 --> 00:02:41,452 by all manner of things. 51 00:02:41,452 --> 00:02:45,140 So the reality is this: 52 00:02:45,140 --> 00:02:47,599 there's nobody that we could mention 53 00:02:47,599 --> 00:02:49,989 that you don't have full access to. 54 00:02:49,989 --> 00:02:52,549 I mean, as long as their material's on the Internet 55 00:02:52,549 --> 00:02:54,340 you have full access to it. 56 00:02:54,340 --> 00:02:57,218 And most men in ministry - 57 00:02:57,218 --> 00:02:58,770 women in ministry - 58 00:02:58,770 --> 00:03:01,060 they want that access. 59 00:03:01,060 --> 00:03:02,547 They want to reach you. 60 00:03:02,547 --> 00:03:04,124 And so it's available to us. 61 00:03:04,124 --> 00:03:07,101 So these questions about 62 00:03:07,101 --> 00:03:11,278 who should I fellowhip with 63 00:03:11,278 --> 00:03:13,836 or who should I separate from (incomplete thought). 64 00:03:13,836 --> 00:03:16,190 He asks this: "Do you have any guidance 65 00:03:16,190 --> 00:03:19,950 on when the line should be drawn? 66 00:03:19,950 --> 00:03:23,165 Does the level of heresy from person B 67 00:03:23,165 --> 00:03:25,098 and/or their public stature 68 00:03:25,098 --> 00:03:27,872 play into this decision? 69 00:03:27,872 --> 00:03:30,237 I'm often confused when I see people 70 00:03:30,237 --> 00:03:32,209 who seem to have good theology 71 00:03:32,209 --> 00:03:34,831 but partner up in ministry with people 72 00:03:34,831 --> 00:03:37,302 that some deem heretical. 73 00:03:37,302 --> 00:03:41,020 For example, Francis Chan spoke 74 00:03:41,020 --> 00:03:44,256 at an International House of Prayer 75 00:03:44,256 --> 00:03:46,466 and publicly said out loud 76 00:03:46,466 --> 00:03:49,075 that he loves Mike Bickle. 77 00:03:49,075 --> 00:03:53,032 John Piper campaigned with Rick Warren. 78 00:03:53,032 --> 00:03:55,060 So what are biblical responses to people 79 00:03:55,060 --> 00:03:57,091 like Chan and Piper? 80 00:03:57,091 --> 00:03:59,297 Is this activity not similar 81 00:03:59,297 --> 00:04:04,426 to what 2 Corinthians 6:14-16 addresses?" 82 00:04:04,426 --> 00:04:07,668 Anybody know what that addresses right off? 83 00:04:07,668 --> 00:04:10,625 James: Do not be unequally yoked? 84 00:04:10,625 --> 00:04:12,549 Tim: What fellowship does light 85 00:04:12,549 --> 00:04:14,000 have with darkness? 86 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,109 We should not be yoked. 87 00:04:16,109 --> 00:04:19,443 Let me ask you this. 88 00:04:19,443 --> 00:04:21,686 (Incomplete thought) 89 00:04:21,686 --> 00:04:23,830 I was asking for quotations, 90 00:04:23,830 --> 00:04:26,866 so it's not like anybody could take it out of context - 91 00:04:26,866 --> 00:04:28,743 except this guy. 92 00:04:28,743 --> 00:04:30,121 This guy mentioned it. 93 00:04:30,121 --> 00:04:32,118 We just stated what it was. 94 00:04:32,118 --> 00:04:34,015 So we weren't using it out of context. 95 00:04:34,015 --> 00:04:35,248 We were just stating it. 96 00:04:35,248 --> 00:04:36,945 But let me ask you something, 97 00:04:36,945 --> 00:04:40,143 is that text - somebody read it. 98 00:04:40,143 --> 00:04:42,428 Somebody read it exactly. 99 00:04:42,428 --> 00:04:46,352 2 Corinthians 6:14-16. 100 00:04:46,352 --> 00:04:47,704 Somebody read that. 101 00:04:47,704 --> 00:04:50,169 James: "Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. 102 00:04:50,169 --> 00:04:53,263 For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? 103 00:04:53,263 --> 00:04:55,900 For what fellowship has light with darkness? 104 00:04:55,900 --> 00:04:58,460 What accord has Christ with Belial? 105 00:04:58,460 --> 00:05:00,061 Or what portion does a believer 106 00:05:00,061 --> 00:05:01,709 share with an unbeliever? 107 00:05:01,709 --> 00:05:04,606 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? 108 00:05:04,606 --> 00:05:06,742 For we are the temple of the living God. 109 00:05:06,742 --> 00:05:09,554 As God said, 'I will make My dwelling among them 110 00:05:09,554 --> 00:05:11,073 and walk among them 111 00:05:11,073 --> 00:05:12,461 and I will be their God 112 00:05:12,461 --> 00:05:14,131 and they shall be My people. 113 00:05:14,131 --> 00:05:16,335 Therefore, go out from their midst 114 00:05:16,335 --> 00:05:18,199 and be separate from them,' 115 00:05:18,199 --> 00:05:19,510 thus says the Lord, 116 00:05:19,510 --> 00:05:21,424 'and touch no unclean thing,` 117 00:05:21,424 --> 00:05:22,773 then I will welcome you.'" 118 00:05:22,773 --> 00:05:24,416 Tim: Okay, here's the thing. 119 00:05:24,416 --> 00:05:25,831 Let me ask you this. 120 00:05:25,831 --> 00:05:34,893 Does that text apply to what we're talking about? 121 00:05:34,893 --> 00:05:37,836 James: Depart from Me workers of lawlessness. 122 00:05:37,836 --> 00:05:39,898 In Matthew 7, they were professing 123 00:05:39,898 --> 00:05:43,543 saying, "Lord, Lord." 124 00:05:43,543 --> 00:05:48,609 Tim: Well, obviously, it's got to do with fellowship. 125 00:05:48,609 --> 00:05:50,982 I mean, it's got to do with 126 00:05:50,982 --> 00:05:52,537 who I'm fellowshipping with. 127 00:05:52,537 --> 00:05:54,698 Now, you might say, 128 00:05:54,698 --> 00:05:58,098 but does it have to do with secondary issues? 129 00:05:58,098 --> 00:06:01,209 Perhaps. 130 00:06:01,209 --> 00:06:07,104 I mean, certainly, there's spiritual principles 131 00:06:07,104 --> 00:06:08,411 to draw from that. 132 00:06:08,411 --> 00:06:10,978 But anyways, he says, 133 00:06:10,978 --> 00:06:12,928 "Is this activity not similar to 134 00:06:12,928 --> 00:06:16,268 what 2 Corinthians 6:14-16 addresses? 135 00:06:16,268 --> 00:06:19,028 I.e. what fellowship has light with darkness 136 00:06:19,028 --> 00:06:22,244 and what accord has Christ with Belial? 137 00:06:22,244 --> 00:06:24,645 I came across a video 138 00:06:24,645 --> 00:06:27,941 that publicly calls this activity out, 139 00:06:27,941 --> 00:06:30,275 and he claims that we shouldn't be associating 140 00:06:30,275 --> 00:06:32,922 with people like this." 141 00:06:32,922 --> 00:06:34,386 Well, and I pulled it up. 142 00:06:34,386 --> 00:06:38,104 This guy specifically that he references 143 00:06:38,104 --> 00:06:41,409 is attacking Phil Johnson and John MacArthur. 144 00:06:41,409 --> 00:06:44,385 And he's saying that they're hypocrites 145 00:06:44,385 --> 00:06:47,982 because he's saying on the one hand, 146 00:06:47,982 --> 00:06:50,785 they will condemn somebody 147 00:06:50,785 --> 00:06:55,347 like Michael Brown who affiliates 148 00:06:55,347 --> 00:06:58,388 with these wild charismatics. 149 00:06:58,388 --> 00:07:00,390 Guilt by association. 150 00:07:00,390 --> 00:07:02,015 But they said, then John MacArthur 151 00:07:02,015 --> 00:07:04,098 will stand on the same platform 152 00:07:04,098 --> 00:07:05,932 with somebody like John Piper 153 00:07:05,932 --> 00:07:09,205 who condones Rick Warren or Mark Driscoll. 154 00:07:09,205 --> 00:07:14,059 And so they're saying 155 00:07:14,059 --> 00:07:18,167 that MacArthur is being a hypocrite. 156 00:07:18,167 --> 00:07:19,859 He's not playing by the same rules. 157 00:07:19,859 --> 00:07:21,661 He'll condemn somebody else, 158 00:07:21,661 --> 00:07:25,889 but then he himself will go do that. 159 00:07:25,889 --> 00:07:30,999 Look, we need to be discerning. 160 00:07:30,999 --> 00:07:34,002 The real reason that I want to do these Bible studies is this: 161 00:07:34,002 --> 00:07:36,033 Discernment. 162 00:07:36,033 --> 00:07:38,405 And the idea behind discernment - 163 00:07:38,405 --> 00:07:40,156 I was listening to John MacArthur 164 00:07:40,156 --> 00:07:42,100 on the radio just recently, 165 00:07:42,100 --> 00:07:44,303 maybe three weeks back or so. 166 00:07:44,303 --> 00:07:48,395 And he was talking about the term discernment. 167 00:07:48,395 --> 00:07:53,168 And he said that the Old Testament word 168 00:07:53,168 --> 00:07:56,998 has to do with a space. 169 00:07:56,998 --> 00:07:58,915 The Old Testament word for discernment - 170 00:07:58,915 --> 00:08:00,390 sometimes it's "understanding" 171 00:08:00,390 --> 00:08:03,166 or it can be interpreted a number of different ways. 172 00:08:03,166 --> 00:08:05,985 But he said it's the idea of a space. 173 00:08:05,985 --> 00:08:08,789 And he said how does that work with discernment? 174 00:08:08,789 --> 00:08:11,130 Well, it's the person that has the ability 175 00:08:11,130 --> 00:08:14,936 to look at two things that at first sight 176 00:08:14,936 --> 00:08:17,305 might appear to be the same. 177 00:08:17,305 --> 00:08:19,489 But discernment is the ability 178 00:08:19,489 --> 00:08:21,394 to separate between the two 179 00:08:21,394 --> 00:08:24,390 and put a space between them. 180 00:08:24,390 --> 00:08:26,737 Now, proper discernment would be able to 181 00:08:26,737 --> 00:08:28,798 look at a John Piper 182 00:08:28,798 --> 00:08:30,430 over against a Michael Brown 183 00:08:30,430 --> 00:08:32,280 or any two different cases 184 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,634 and say: is it the same thing? 185 00:08:35,634 --> 00:08:40,830 Or, are they actually different somehow? 186 00:08:40,830 --> 00:08:43,280 That's discernment. 187 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,729 But let's keep going because his question goes on. 188 00:08:45,729 --> 00:08:47,383 He says, "I came across this video 189 00:08:47,383 --> 00:08:49,293 that publicly calls this activity out. 190 00:08:49,293 --> 00:08:51,148 He claims we shouldn't be associating 191 00:08:51,148 --> 00:08:52,269 with people like this. 192 00:08:52,269 --> 00:08:54,217 I would love to get your thoughts on this 193 00:08:54,217 --> 00:08:57,147 because it makes things really confusing for me. 194 00:08:57,147 --> 00:08:59,591 In this video, Phil Johnson 195 00:08:59,591 --> 00:09:01,127 mentions a lot of things 196 00:09:01,127 --> 00:09:04,089 that he seems to contradict himself on 197 00:09:04,089 --> 00:09:06,852 and it often looks like there is a double standard." 198 00:09:06,852 --> 00:09:09,544 Well, that's what the guy doing the video 199 00:09:09,544 --> 00:09:12,455 is trying to make it look like. 200 00:09:12,455 --> 00:09:14,158 I listened to the things 201 00:09:14,158 --> 00:09:15,901 that Phil Johnson was saying 202 00:09:15,901 --> 00:09:19,687 (incomplete thought). 203 00:09:19,687 --> 00:09:22,309 I think it's understandable what he's saying. 204 00:09:22,309 --> 00:09:24,303 And I don't think it's a double standard. 205 00:09:24,303 --> 00:09:27,479 But, he goes on to quote Spurgeon. 206 00:09:27,479 --> 00:09:31,622 "Spurgeon has even said things such as, 207 00:09:31,622 --> 00:09:35,212 'that I might not stultify my testimony, 208 00:09:35,212 --> 00:09:37,616 I've cut myself clear from those 209 00:09:37,616 --> 00:09:39,302 who err from the faith 210 00:09:39,302 --> 00:09:42,192 and even from those who associate 211 00:09:42,192 --> 00:09:45,782 with the ones that err from the faith.'" 212 00:09:45,782 --> 00:09:48,335 That comes from "The Sword and Trowel." 213 00:09:48,335 --> 00:09:50,629 "The person's argument is the following: 214 00:09:50,629 --> 00:09:52,760 that when we're dealing with false prophets 215 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,368 we take part in their wicked works 216 00:09:55,368 --> 00:09:57,943 by partnering with them at conferences 217 00:09:57,943 --> 00:10:04,763 per 2 John 10-11." 218 00:10:04,763 --> 00:10:06,153 Somebody look that one up. 219 00:10:06,153 --> 00:10:11,740 2 John 10-11. 220 00:10:11,740 --> 00:10:13,820 And he goes on to say concerning that, 221 00:10:13,820 --> 00:10:16,422 "that we're called to not associate 222 00:10:16,422 --> 00:10:19,123 with them if they continue this activity 223 00:10:19,123 --> 00:10:21,549 per 1 Corinthians 5:11. 224 00:10:21,549 --> 00:10:23,268 Is this a correct assessment 225 00:10:23,268 --> 00:10:24,625 of situations like this?" 226 00:10:24,625 --> 00:10:26,495 And of course, 1 Corinthians 5 227 00:10:26,495 --> 00:10:30,139 is about disassociation. 228 00:10:30,139 --> 00:10:33,496 So somebody read the text from 2 John. 229 00:10:33,496 --> 00:10:35,308 (from the room) "If anyone comes to you 230 00:10:35,308 --> 00:10:37,137 and does not bring this teaching, 231 00:10:37,137 --> 00:10:39,544 do not receive him into your house 232 00:10:39,544 --> 00:10:41,357 or give him any greeting. 233 00:10:41,357 --> 00:10:43,020 Whoever greets him takes part 234 00:10:43,020 --> 00:10:46,662 in his wicked works." 235 00:10:46,662 --> 00:10:48,600 Tim: And then he goes on to say, 236 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:50,225 "I don't know what all this means 237 00:10:50,225 --> 00:10:52,032 in terms of the appropriate response. 238 00:10:52,032 --> 00:10:53,889 Do we not associate with these people 239 00:10:53,889 --> 00:10:55,891 for these public figures/teachers? 240 00:10:55,891 --> 00:10:57,835 Do we not recommend them to other people 241 00:10:57,835 --> 00:10:59,480 because they might direct people 242 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:00,901 into the hands of wolves? 243 00:11:00,901 --> 00:11:03,016 Should we not learn from them at all? 244 00:11:03,016 --> 00:11:05,079 What if other people we know in the church 245 00:11:05,079 --> 00:11:06,359 are learning from them? 246 00:11:06,359 --> 00:11:07,428 Should we warn them? 247 00:11:07,428 --> 00:11:09,658 I'm definitely confused in a matter like this 248 00:11:09,658 --> 00:11:14,656 and would appreciate any advice. 249 00:11:14,656 --> 00:11:17,095 Regards, Jeremy." 250 00:11:17,095 --> 00:11:25,971 So, last week, I'm telling Jared 251 00:11:25,971 --> 00:11:31,064 about these Gatepost articles 252 00:11:31,064 --> 00:11:35,076 that I printed off a whole ream of paper's worth 253 00:11:35,076 --> 00:11:39,560 and took with me to a vacation several years back 254 00:11:39,560 --> 00:11:41,402 with the mindset - I'm going to try 255 00:11:41,402 --> 00:11:45,139 to read through all these while I'm on vacation. 256 00:11:45,139 --> 00:11:48,346 So I printed of all these Gatepost articles 257 00:11:48,346 --> 00:11:49,661 from Conrad Murrell. 258 00:11:49,661 --> 00:11:52,072 And I brought this down last week 259 00:11:52,072 --> 00:11:53,190 to show Jared. 260 00:11:53,190 --> 00:11:55,309 So we've got it over there on the table 261 00:11:55,309 --> 00:11:56,727 and we're flipping through, 262 00:11:56,727 --> 00:12:00,534 and here this comes up, 263 00:12:00,534 --> 00:12:03,546 and it made me think, 264 00:12:03,546 --> 00:12:06,788 hey, I saw that. 265 00:12:06,788 --> 00:12:09,357 I saw that Conrad dealt with something 266 00:12:09,357 --> 00:12:12,175 that I think is applicable. 267 00:12:12,175 --> 00:12:15,572 And I thought, oh, it's probably buried in the middle. 268 00:12:15,572 --> 00:12:19,460 It's the first one. 269 00:12:19,460 --> 00:12:21,197 Now listen to this. 270 00:12:21,197 --> 00:12:24,744 You can change the names here. 271 00:12:24,744 --> 00:12:26,447 We can bring it up current. 272 00:12:26,447 --> 00:12:28,488 Because I'll tell you, this was written 273 00:12:28,488 --> 00:12:32,324 in July 1973. 274 00:12:32,324 --> 00:12:36,796 Conrad just died a few weeks ago. 275 00:12:36,796 --> 00:12:38,757 Back when he started writing these, 276 00:12:38,757 --> 00:12:45,661 his very first one - Volume 001 - 277 00:12:45,661 --> 00:12:50,351 is called "Flamboyant Evangelical Personalities." 278 00:12:50,351 --> 00:12:51,906 Now listen to this. 279 00:12:51,906 --> 00:12:53,903 "What about Billy Graham? 280 00:12:53,903 --> 00:12:57,306 Oral Roberts? Rex Humbard? 281 00:12:57,306 --> 00:13:00,644 Katheryn Kuhlman? Bill Bright? 282 00:13:00,644 --> 00:13:03,411 T.L. Osborne? Jerry Falwell? 283 00:13:03,411 --> 00:13:05,241 Bill Harrington? etc." 284 00:13:05,241 --> 00:13:08,226 Now, we could take all those names right out 285 00:13:08,226 --> 00:13:11,788 and you could put whatever you wanted in there. 286 00:13:11,788 --> 00:13:14,120 You could put Bickle in there. 287 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,976 You can put Rick Warren in there. 288 00:13:17,976 --> 00:13:22,330 You could put whoever you want in there. 289 00:13:22,330 --> 00:13:24,901 He says, "these are some of the more flamboyant 290 00:13:24,901 --> 00:13:26,819 evangelical personalities 291 00:13:26,819 --> 00:13:30,826 that we're often asked to categorize." 292 00:13:30,826 --> 00:13:34,094 And see, I think that's what's happening here. 293 00:13:34,094 --> 00:13:37,647 We're trying to put people in categories. 294 00:13:37,647 --> 00:13:39,717 Is that friend or foe? 295 00:13:39,717 --> 00:13:42,219 Somebody I should be rubbing shoulders with or no? 296 00:13:42,219 --> 00:13:44,768 Somebody I should be listening to on the Internet? 297 00:13:44,768 --> 00:13:46,548 Or is that danger? Is that poison? 298 00:13:46,548 --> 00:13:51,114 We're trying to find the right categories. 299 00:13:51,114 --> 00:13:54,692 "It's not always easy 300 00:13:54,692 --> 00:13:59,047 to do a cut and dried job of it." 301 00:13:59,047 --> 00:14:01,147 And that's true. 302 00:14:01,147 --> 00:14:03,751 It's not easy. 303 00:14:03,751 --> 00:14:05,082 And you know, the truth is 304 00:14:05,082 --> 00:14:06,850 just because somebody did something 305 00:14:06,850 --> 00:14:09,610 with Rick Warren several years ago, 306 00:14:09,610 --> 00:14:12,218 doesn't mean that they'd do it now. 307 00:14:12,218 --> 00:14:14,311 And it doesn't mean that both men 308 00:14:14,311 --> 00:14:19,156 are in exactly the same theological positions right now. 309 00:14:19,156 --> 00:14:20,887 Men are changing. 310 00:14:20,887 --> 00:14:22,217 Men's positions change. 311 00:14:22,217 --> 00:14:25,469 Their theology is sometimes - 312 00:14:25,469 --> 00:14:27,283 we hope that happens. 313 00:14:27,283 --> 00:14:30,545 It's developing. 314 00:14:30,545 --> 00:14:32,842 So it can be very difficult. 315 00:14:32,842 --> 00:14:34,930 Plus it can be very difficult to know. 316 00:14:34,930 --> 00:14:38,065 Just because you might happen to be able 317 00:14:38,065 --> 00:14:39,421 to pull up YouTube, 318 00:14:39,421 --> 00:14:41,623 pull up a John MacArthur sermon, 319 00:14:41,623 --> 00:14:43,681 and find he's preaching at a conference 320 00:14:43,681 --> 00:14:46,977 and say, what? He's on the same stage with Francis Chan. 321 00:14:46,977 --> 00:14:52,185 And don't you know Francis Chan was with IHOP? 322 00:14:52,185 --> 00:14:59,396 But you know, what if MacArthur was thinking, 323 00:14:59,396 --> 00:15:04,162 you know, I'm not inclined to take this conference, 324 00:15:04,162 --> 00:15:07,277 but I feel like God has been prompting me 325 00:15:07,277 --> 00:15:09,768 for an open door with Francis Chan. 326 00:15:09,768 --> 00:15:12,662 And this will give me a good opportunity to talk with him. 327 00:15:12,662 --> 00:15:15,657 And there are some things I feel like I need to warn him about. 328 00:15:15,657 --> 00:15:17,007 What if that was happening? 329 00:15:17,007 --> 00:15:18,373 And you look at him and say: 330 00:15:18,373 --> 00:15:20,559 we better cut him off! 331 00:15:20,559 --> 00:15:22,911 When the reality is, he didn't go there 332 00:15:22,911 --> 00:15:27,794 to endorse IHOP. 333 00:15:27,794 --> 00:15:31,421 And it may not have had to do anything 334 00:15:31,421 --> 00:15:33,141 with Francis Chan. 335 00:15:33,141 --> 00:15:37,640 It may have been that specific environment - 336 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,105 he felt like was something 337 00:15:40,105 --> 00:15:43,918 that he felt God would have him to do. 338 00:15:43,918 --> 00:15:45,771 But these things are difficult. 339 00:15:45,771 --> 00:15:47,605 It's not just a cut and dry job of it. 340 00:15:47,605 --> 00:15:52,529 "I doubt that it is as necessary as we suppose." 341 00:15:52,529 --> 00:15:55,823 Now, I want you to get that. 342 00:15:55,823 --> 00:15:58,423 You hear what he's saying? 343 00:15:58,423 --> 00:16:01,366 I doubt it's really all that important 344 00:16:01,366 --> 00:16:05,095 that we figure out the categories 345 00:16:05,095 --> 00:16:08,051 for all these guys. 346 00:16:08,051 --> 00:16:10,761 I think that's key. 347 00:16:10,761 --> 00:16:13,270 Of course, the question is why? 348 00:16:13,270 --> 00:16:16,254 Why would we take that position that it's not important? 349 00:16:16,254 --> 00:16:18,269 You mean it's not important for me to know 350 00:16:18,269 --> 00:16:20,954 who the false prophet is? 351 00:16:20,954 --> 00:16:22,933 Maybe it's far more important you know 352 00:16:22,933 --> 00:16:25,699 what the truth is than to know 353 00:16:25,699 --> 00:16:29,008 who all the right and the wrong preachers are. 354 00:16:29,008 --> 00:16:31,151 But listen to what he says. 355 00:16:31,151 --> 00:16:32,971 "Both the Old and New Testaments 356 00:16:32,971 --> 00:16:35,280 are constantly crying out their warnings 357 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,613 against false prophets, false teachers, 358 00:16:37,613 --> 00:16:39,091 and hirelings. 359 00:16:39,091 --> 00:16:41,048 The Scriptures are too numerous to list 360 00:16:41,048 --> 00:16:43,391 and too obvious to ignore. 361 00:16:43,391 --> 00:16:46,469 A false teacher can readily be identified 362 00:16:46,469 --> 00:16:48,845 by his false doctrine. 363 00:16:48,845 --> 00:16:51,148 But these persons cannot be dispatched 364 00:16:51,148 --> 00:16:54,572 or vindicated so easily." 365 00:16:54,572 --> 00:16:56,451 What he's saying is this: 366 00:16:56,451 --> 00:17:00,050 It's very easy to knock straw men over. 367 00:17:00,050 --> 00:17:07,951 But real people are not so easy to knock over. 368 00:17:07,951 --> 00:17:11,268 The thing is when you start looking 369 00:17:11,268 --> 00:17:12,601 at men's ministries, 370 00:17:12,601 --> 00:17:15,963 oftentimes, they say a lot of good things. 371 00:17:15,963 --> 00:17:18,881 They say right things. 372 00:17:18,881 --> 00:17:22,121 What he's saying is it's not so easy 373 00:17:22,121 --> 00:17:24,457 to just look at a man and say, 374 00:17:24,457 --> 00:17:26,921 oh, that's a false prophet. 375 00:17:26,921 --> 00:17:29,460 That's just really obvious. 376 00:17:29,460 --> 00:17:32,019 There are some that are very obvious. 377 00:17:32,019 --> 00:17:33,722 But you know, the vast majority 378 00:17:33,722 --> 00:17:39,652 are not so obvious. 379 00:17:39,652 --> 00:17:41,196 He says, 380 00:17:41,196 --> 00:17:43,266 "Their deviations from fundamental 381 00:17:43,266 --> 00:17:47,291 Bible truth are little more 382 00:17:47,291 --> 00:17:49,635 than can be found in most men." 383 00:17:49,635 --> 00:17:51,175 In other words, when you look 384 00:17:51,175 --> 00:17:52,655 across the nation, 385 00:17:52,655 --> 00:17:55,134 you find all sorts of people that stray 386 00:17:55,134 --> 00:17:57,455 into odd beliefs just as much 387 00:17:57,455 --> 00:18:00,668 as any of these men. 388 00:18:00,668 --> 00:18:04,058 "A more likely test is found in Matthew 7:16, 389 00:18:04,058 --> 00:18:06,321 'You shall know them by their fruits.' 390 00:18:06,321 --> 00:18:08,015 But even this is troublesome 391 00:18:08,015 --> 00:18:09,826 because it takes time for fruit 392 00:18:09,826 --> 00:18:12,578 to come forth and mature. 393 00:18:12,578 --> 00:18:14,542 This week's report of last week 394 00:18:14,542 --> 00:18:17,222 or last year's success means nothing. 395 00:18:17,222 --> 00:18:19,820 The counterfeit does not always show up 396 00:18:19,820 --> 00:18:22,452 that quickly. 397 00:18:22,452 --> 00:18:24,186 Nor does the true grain 398 00:18:24,186 --> 00:18:27,770 always show up that quickly. 399 00:18:27,770 --> 00:18:30,280 William Carey labored 7 years in India 400 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,267 without a single convert. 401 00:18:32,267 --> 00:18:34,710 Some of these have been around long enough 402 00:18:34,710 --> 00:18:37,830 that some sort of fruit ought to be showing up. 403 00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:39,554 We should ask: what is the effect 404 00:18:39,554 --> 00:18:40,957 of their ministries? 405 00:18:40,957 --> 00:18:42,923 Does it cause men to become holy? 406 00:18:42,923 --> 00:18:45,221 Does it turn the tide of wickedness 407 00:18:45,221 --> 00:18:48,151 in the areas in which they serve? 408 00:18:48,151 --> 00:18:52,553 Are strong spiritual men coming forth from them? 409 00:18:52,553 --> 00:18:54,550 Do their ministries cause men to see 410 00:18:54,550 --> 00:18:56,970 a mighty and holy God? 411 00:18:56,970 --> 00:18:58,428 Are the fear and love of God 412 00:18:58,428 --> 00:19:02,824 struck upon men's hearts through them?" 413 00:19:02,824 --> 00:19:04,644 Then he says this, 414 00:19:04,644 --> 00:19:08,670 "At the least, we can say this. 415 00:19:08,670 --> 00:19:10,938 None of these can be called 416 00:19:10,938 --> 00:19:16,477 in any sense great men of God. 417 00:19:16,477 --> 00:19:18,200 When the fruits are measured..." 418 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,192 He's talking about that list he gave in the beginning. 419 00:19:21,192 --> 00:19:23,942 He says, "When their fruits are measured, 420 00:19:23,942 --> 00:19:25,641 they can't stand in the shadow 421 00:19:25,641 --> 00:19:28,256 of Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, 422 00:19:28,256 --> 00:19:31,500 Charles Spurgeon, John Wesley, 423 00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:33,933 Calvin, Luther." 424 00:19:33,933 --> 00:19:36,560 He was very much a Calvinist, 425 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,511 but he says even Finney. 426 00:19:39,511 --> 00:19:41,681 "This is not to say that their ministries 427 00:19:41,681 --> 00:19:46,597 are all counterfeit or useless." 428 00:19:46,597 --> 00:19:49,404 This is important. 429 00:19:49,404 --> 00:19:54,930 "We are not required to say either, 430 00:19:54,930 --> 00:19:58,292 unless we know." 431 00:19:58,292 --> 00:20:00,635 You hear what he's saying? 432 00:20:00,635 --> 00:20:03,031 Either - what do you mean "either"? 433 00:20:03,031 --> 00:20:04,285 What he's saying is this: 434 00:20:04,285 --> 00:20:06,272 We're not required to say 435 00:20:06,272 --> 00:20:10,832 that somebody's ministry is counterfeit 436 00:20:10,832 --> 00:20:12,879 or the real deal. 437 00:20:12,879 --> 00:20:16,498 Whether it's useless or valuable. 438 00:20:16,498 --> 00:20:19,026 We're not required to make an assessment 439 00:20:19,026 --> 00:20:22,082 on these things unless we know. 440 00:20:22,082 --> 00:20:24,182 You know how many people 441 00:20:24,182 --> 00:20:28,177 just talk about other people? 442 00:20:28,177 --> 00:20:30,537 And the truth is they don't really know. 443 00:20:30,537 --> 00:20:32,352 They speculate or they've heard 444 00:20:32,352 --> 00:20:35,590 second-hand, third-hand, tenth-hand. 445 00:20:35,590 --> 00:20:37,412 Somebody rumored it abroad. 446 00:20:37,412 --> 00:20:41,242 Somebody said this. 447 00:20:41,242 --> 00:20:44,593 "Paul rejoices in the preaching of Christ 448 00:20:44,593 --> 00:20:46,236 even though many were doing it 449 00:20:46,236 --> 00:20:48,420 for wrong motives. 450 00:20:48,420 --> 00:20:51,200 Who are we to judge another man's servant? 451 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,303 We're not responsible to analyze 452 00:20:53,303 --> 00:20:56,812 everything that comes along - 453 00:20:56,812 --> 00:21:00,502 only that which has to do 454 00:21:00,502 --> 00:21:06,304 with our own personal ministry. 455 00:21:06,304 --> 00:21:08,029 If I'm faced with a decision 456 00:21:08,029 --> 00:21:10,015 of working with these men 457 00:21:10,015 --> 00:21:11,595 or supporting or endorsing 458 00:21:11,595 --> 00:21:14,818 a particular thing they're doing, 459 00:21:14,818 --> 00:21:17,308 then I do need to find the mind of God 460 00:21:17,308 --> 00:21:19,224 in the matter." 461 00:21:19,224 --> 00:21:21,575 I mean, if it's impacting me - 462 00:21:21,575 --> 00:21:23,860 one of these guys asks me to preach with them - 463 00:21:23,860 --> 00:21:28,958 I might need to ask. 464 00:21:28,958 --> 00:21:30,977 If it was directly bearing on your life, 465 00:21:30,977 --> 00:21:34,927 you had to make a decision... 466 00:21:34,927 --> 00:21:36,192 but then he says, 467 00:21:36,192 --> 00:21:41,933 "It's only in relation to what God wants me to do." 468 00:21:41,933 --> 00:21:45,430 And then he says this, and I boxed it. 469 00:21:45,430 --> 00:21:49,598 "Let them alone." 470 00:21:49,598 --> 00:21:52,406 That's good advice. 471 00:21:52,406 --> 00:21:55,386 Leave them alone. 472 00:21:55,386 --> 00:21:56,868 "You have enough to do 473 00:21:56,868 --> 00:21:58,771 without embittering yourself, 474 00:21:58,771 --> 00:22:01,583 fighting against flesh and blood. 475 00:22:01,583 --> 00:22:03,671 It's only going to swell you with pride 476 00:22:03,671 --> 00:22:05,851 over your own self-righteousness. 477 00:22:05,851 --> 00:22:08,241 Get on with your own personal work 478 00:22:08,241 --> 00:22:11,712 and refuse to be distracted by catcalls, 479 00:22:11,712 --> 00:22:14,704 taunts, and questions from the sidelines. 480 00:22:14,704 --> 00:22:18,248 These men's apparent successes mean nothing. 481 00:22:18,248 --> 00:22:20,587 God is keeping the records. 482 00:22:20,587 --> 00:22:24,172 The laurels or the censures of men 483 00:22:24,172 --> 00:22:26,183 do not influence Him. 484 00:22:26,183 --> 00:22:29,783 There will be many surprises at the Judgment Seat. 485 00:22:29,783 --> 00:22:32,157 A man's results may be great 486 00:22:32,157 --> 00:22:33,839 or it may be zero, 487 00:22:33,839 --> 00:22:36,271 but it makes not one whit of difference 488 00:22:36,271 --> 00:22:41,512 about your responsibility to God. 489 00:22:41,512 --> 00:22:43,299 In all likelihood, if you follow God, 490 00:22:43,299 --> 00:22:45,927 your ministry is never going to cross the path 491 00:22:45,927 --> 00:22:47,878 of the man in question. 492 00:22:47,878 --> 00:22:51,138 Gamaliel wisely suggests that time 493 00:22:51,138 --> 00:22:55,591 will either vindicate or condemn all men." 494 00:22:55,591 --> 00:22:59,557 Look, I would say this. 495 00:22:59,557 --> 00:23:02,269 If you don't like the fact that John Piper 496 00:23:02,269 --> 00:23:07,329 did what he did with Rick Warren, 497 00:23:07,329 --> 00:23:13,643 and that causes you to not be able to hear him to profit, 498 00:23:13,643 --> 00:23:16,632 don't listen to him. 499 00:23:16,632 --> 00:23:19,525 You don't have to listen to him. 500 00:23:19,525 --> 00:23:22,829 You don't have to go to his church. 501 00:23:22,829 --> 00:23:25,021 Leave him alone. 502 00:23:25,021 --> 00:23:28,962 He's going to stand or fall. 503 00:23:28,962 --> 00:23:32,952 If you look at a man and you think: 504 00:23:32,952 --> 00:23:37,631 I think that man is being influenced 505 00:23:37,631 --> 00:23:40,832 by a bad influence, 506 00:23:40,832 --> 00:23:43,012 and that makes me not want to be involved 507 00:23:43,012 --> 00:23:46,542 in his ministry, then don't. 508 00:23:46,542 --> 00:23:52,713 Listen, you can choose 509 00:23:52,713 --> 00:23:55,032 whether you're going to listen 510 00:23:55,032 --> 00:24:03,295 to MacArthur, Piper. 511 00:24:03,295 --> 00:24:06,104 You've got that choice. 512 00:24:06,104 --> 00:24:08,393 And you know what? 513 00:24:08,393 --> 00:24:10,683 That link that he gave me. 514 00:24:10,683 --> 00:24:14,467 Here's a guy that just wants to argue. 515 00:24:14,467 --> 00:24:16,906 And he wants to be right. 516 00:24:16,906 --> 00:24:20,651 And he wants to win the argument. 517 00:24:20,651 --> 00:24:22,580 He wants to say: 518 00:24:22,580 --> 00:24:25,464 Well, I think this about so-and-so. 519 00:24:25,464 --> 00:24:27,915 And I want you to agree with me. 520 00:24:27,915 --> 00:24:31,727 Listen, Conrad's exactly right. 521 00:24:31,727 --> 00:24:33,665 All it does it puff people up. 522 00:24:33,665 --> 00:24:36,533 You're trying to be the critiquer; 523 00:24:36,533 --> 00:24:38,240 you're trying to be the judge. 524 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,491 You're trying to run around and say, 525 00:24:40,491 --> 00:24:42,112 well, I think this, 526 00:24:42,112 --> 00:24:44,447 and guilt by association. 527 00:24:44,447 --> 00:24:47,170 You know what? 528 00:24:47,170 --> 00:24:49,238 What I would do is this: 529 00:24:49,238 --> 00:24:51,887 If somebody profits your soul; 530 00:24:51,887 --> 00:24:54,188 if John MacArthur profits your soul, 531 00:24:54,188 --> 00:24:57,015 but you say I don't agree with his eschatology, 532 00:24:57,015 --> 00:24:58,933 okay. 533 00:24:58,933 --> 00:25:01,657 I mean, I've listened to over a thousand 534 00:25:01,657 --> 00:25:03,319 of his sermons probably. 535 00:25:03,319 --> 00:25:05,125 Much of my seminary training came 536 00:25:05,125 --> 00:25:08,187 from listening to John MacArthur. 537 00:25:08,187 --> 00:25:12,145 But I didn't listen to Matthew 24. 538 00:25:12,145 --> 00:25:14,353 I didn't listen to large portions 539 00:25:14,353 --> 00:25:16,529 of 1 and 2 Thessalonians. Why? 540 00:25:16,529 --> 00:25:19,224 Because I thought he was dead wrong on his eschatology. 541 00:25:19,224 --> 00:25:21,148 But I listened to the other things. 542 00:25:21,148 --> 00:25:23,496 You see, that's being discerning. 543 00:25:23,496 --> 00:25:25,829 If you feel like, you know what, 544 00:25:25,829 --> 00:25:28,114 I don't like what he said about strange fire. 545 00:25:28,114 --> 00:25:29,799 Okay, don't listen to him there. 546 00:25:29,799 --> 00:25:31,456 And if you get to the point where, 547 00:25:31,456 --> 00:25:35,007 you know what, he's becoming 548 00:25:35,007 --> 00:25:36,769 issue-oriented enough 549 00:25:36,769 --> 00:25:39,111 and it's a lot of issues that I don't care - 550 00:25:39,111 --> 00:25:41,014 look, if it's not profiting you anymore, 551 00:25:41,014 --> 00:25:44,740 you don't have to listen anymore. 552 00:25:44,740 --> 00:25:47,806 And he's going to stand or fall before the Lord. 553 00:25:47,806 --> 00:25:50,564 If you listen to John Piper and it's like, 554 00:25:50,564 --> 00:25:54,371 wow, that really spoke to my soul. 555 00:25:54,371 --> 00:25:55,713 And somebody comes along: 556 00:25:55,713 --> 00:25:59,429 But do you know what he did with Mark Driscoll in the past? 557 00:25:59,429 --> 00:26:00,724 Well, okay, maybe he did, 558 00:26:00,724 --> 00:26:02,854 but I'll tell you, that message right there 559 00:26:02,854 --> 00:26:04,880 helped my soul. 560 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,535 You know what? It's your choice 561 00:26:06,535 --> 00:26:09,202 whether you want to stop listening to him now 562 00:26:09,202 --> 00:26:12,151 and not be profited by any more of his messages. 563 00:26:12,151 --> 00:26:15,621 We've got choices. 564 00:26:15,621 --> 00:26:17,539 You've got choices of churches to go to 565 00:26:17,539 --> 00:26:22,920 and you've got all manner of choices 566 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,932 of people to listen to. 567 00:26:25,932 --> 00:26:27,486 And we need to be discerning. 568 00:26:27,486 --> 00:26:29,000 We need to be Berean. 569 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,677 We need to listen to people. 570 00:26:32,677 --> 00:26:34,701 I mean, just because John MacArthur 571 00:26:34,701 --> 00:26:36,287 goes and stands on a stage 572 00:26:36,287 --> 00:26:38,369 with Francis Chan perhaps 573 00:26:38,369 --> 00:26:39,706 and Francis Chan has been 574 00:26:39,706 --> 00:26:42,321 rubbing shoulders with some of these 575 00:26:42,321 --> 00:26:46,434 crazy prophet guys - 576 00:26:46,434 --> 00:26:50,718 well, if I don't hear that coming across in MacArthur, 577 00:26:50,718 --> 00:26:52,959 I don't know his motives. 578 00:26:52,959 --> 00:26:54,660 Why sit there in the judgment seat 579 00:26:54,660 --> 00:26:58,062 and try to judge those motives? 580 00:26:58,062 --> 00:27:00,795 I think he's so right. 581 00:27:00,795 --> 00:27:03,616 Look, you've got your own life to live. 582 00:27:03,616 --> 00:27:07,168 Rather than sitting there on the judgment seat condemning, 583 00:27:07,168 --> 00:27:10,234 it's like, well, if I condemn him, 584 00:27:10,234 --> 00:27:11,307 he's condemned. 585 00:27:11,307 --> 00:27:13,214 And if I bless him, he's blessed. 586 00:27:13,214 --> 00:27:15,135 Who are you? 587 00:27:15,135 --> 00:27:17,297 Who are we? I'll tell you who we are. 588 00:27:17,297 --> 00:27:19,034 If we're God's children, 589 00:27:19,034 --> 00:27:21,479 we're called to be Berean. 590 00:27:21,479 --> 00:27:23,367 We're called to take Scriptures 591 00:27:23,367 --> 00:27:25,097 and we're called to be discerning 592 00:27:25,097 --> 00:27:27,765 and to exercise ourselves in that. 593 00:27:27,765 --> 00:27:30,277 And we should listen to what people preach. 594 00:27:30,277 --> 00:27:32,308 We should listen to what people teach. 595 00:27:32,308 --> 00:27:36,177 And we do need to be discerning too 596 00:27:36,177 --> 00:27:41,302 in the areas of, you know, 597 00:27:41,302 --> 00:27:44,786 John MacArthur and R.C. Sproul 598 00:27:44,786 --> 00:27:46,731 could be friends though they disagreed 599 00:27:46,731 --> 00:27:50,589 on baptism and eschatology. 600 00:27:50,589 --> 00:27:53,350 They could be friends. 601 00:27:53,350 --> 00:27:54,866 You know what? 602 00:27:54,866 --> 00:27:57,727 They believe those things are secondary issues. 603 00:27:57,727 --> 00:27:59,791 So do I. 604 00:27:59,791 --> 00:28:02,472 There are some people who believe 605 00:28:02,472 --> 00:28:06,042 baptism is a primary issue. 606 00:28:06,042 --> 00:28:07,346 Okay. 607 00:28:07,346 --> 00:28:09,563 I mean, if you do, 608 00:28:09,563 --> 00:28:12,157 and because of that you can't listen to R.C. Sproul - 609 00:28:12,157 --> 00:28:15,168 I had a pastor in the past 610 00:28:15,168 --> 00:28:17,801 who told me he would not allow 611 00:28:17,801 --> 00:28:20,697 George Whitefield in his pulpit. 612 00:28:20,697 --> 00:28:22,382 Okay. 613 00:28:22,382 --> 00:28:24,843 He's free to do that. 614 00:28:24,843 --> 00:28:29,424 I said, brother, I would. 615 00:28:29,424 --> 00:28:32,801 I mean, are we not free? 616 00:28:32,801 --> 00:28:36,809 And so, I think that's the approach 617 00:28:36,809 --> 00:28:37,942 we need to take. 618 00:28:37,942 --> 00:28:39,601 Live your life. 619 00:28:39,601 --> 00:28:43,299 The men who help you run faster and better, 620 00:28:43,299 --> 00:28:46,029 rub shoulders with them. 621 00:28:46,029 --> 00:28:49,983 If not, leave them alone. 622 00:28:49,983 --> 00:28:52,064 Yes, just recently, I was asked to preach 623 00:28:52,064 --> 00:28:54,473 a conference in another state. 624 00:28:54,473 --> 00:29:00,490 And it was with people who 625 00:29:00,490 --> 00:29:03,226 held to certain positions 626 00:29:03,226 --> 00:29:05,801 and I felt like it was best 627 00:29:05,801 --> 00:29:07,585 to not accept it. 628 00:29:07,585 --> 00:29:10,090 I mean, when you're confronted by things like that, 629 00:29:10,090 --> 00:29:11,709 you need to weigh them out. 630 00:29:11,709 --> 00:29:15,310 And I felt like that was the wise path. 631 00:29:15,310 --> 00:29:17,000 We all get put in those places. 632 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,268 We have to make judgments. 633 00:29:18,268 --> 00:29:21,155 We have to make decisions. 634 00:29:21,155 --> 00:29:24,380 Don't live your life just consumed 635 00:29:24,380 --> 00:29:26,034 about what that person believes 636 00:29:26,034 --> 00:29:27,126 or what they're doing 637 00:29:27,126 --> 00:29:31,067 or this high profile person or that one. 638 00:29:31,067 --> 00:29:33,992 Run. Run, man! Run, woman! 639 00:29:33,992 --> 00:29:35,908 Run your race. 640 00:29:35,908 --> 00:29:38,345 Serve the Lord. 641 00:29:38,345 --> 00:29:40,585 Those that help you, listen to him. 642 00:29:40,585 --> 00:29:41,661 And you know what? 643 00:29:41,661 --> 00:29:43,002 Just because somebody's good 644 00:29:43,002 --> 00:29:45,012 doesn't mean you need to listen to them. 645 00:29:45,012 --> 00:29:46,680 (incomplete thought) 646 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,800 You know, there's a portion of my life 647 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:54,663 where this preacher was very helpful to me. 648 00:29:54,663 --> 00:29:57,731 Then other portions where this preacher 649 00:29:57,731 --> 00:29:59,838 was extremely helpful to me. 650 00:29:59,838 --> 00:30:01,428 There's been another portion 651 00:30:01,428 --> 00:30:02,931 where this preacher was. 652 00:30:02,931 --> 00:30:06,671 It doesn't mean that the first two I came to find out were heretical. 653 00:30:06,671 --> 00:30:09,066 It's just where I was at the time. 654 00:30:09,066 --> 00:30:13,468 Look, expose yourself to what profits you the most 655 00:30:13,468 --> 00:30:16,113 and helps you walk with the Lord; 656 00:30:16,113 --> 00:30:18,350 helps your faith; helps your love; 657 00:30:18,350 --> 00:30:25,808 helps your Christlikeness. 658 00:30:25,808 --> 00:30:27,751 Any comment or questions on that 659 00:30:27,751 --> 00:30:28,770 before we move on? 660 00:30:28,770 --> 00:30:30,649 (from the room): I was just thinking 661 00:30:30,649 --> 00:30:32,451 about the Lloyd-Jones incident 662 00:30:32,451 --> 00:30:34,283 with Billy Graham. 663 00:30:34,283 --> 00:30:36,810 Would you say that he would have 664 00:30:36,810 --> 00:30:41,820 participated if Graham agreed 665 00:30:41,820 --> 00:30:45,312 with those three things he was talking about? 666 00:30:45,312 --> 00:30:48,257 (unintelligible) 667 00:30:48,257 --> 00:30:49,877 Tim: See, that was a big problem 668 00:30:49,877 --> 00:30:51,892 and that was the reason that Bob Jones 669 00:30:51,892 --> 00:30:53,389 separated from Billy Graham. 670 00:30:53,389 --> 00:30:55,330 And that was one of the issues 671 00:30:55,330 --> 00:30:57,376 that you're hearing there - 672 00:30:57,376 --> 00:31:00,100 Lloyd-Jones had with Billy Graham 673 00:31:00,100 --> 00:31:03,314 was the fact that he was putting 674 00:31:03,314 --> 00:31:05,805 Catholics on the platform with him. 675 00:31:05,805 --> 00:31:08,687 But see, this was a situation 676 00:31:08,687 --> 00:31:13,785 where Lloyd-Jones - this pertained to him. 677 00:31:13,785 --> 00:31:16,443 Would Lloyd-Jones stand on that platform 678 00:31:16,443 --> 00:31:17,923 with Billy Graham? 679 00:31:17,923 --> 00:31:19,549 Would he be involved? 680 00:31:19,549 --> 00:31:20,941 And you know what? 681 00:31:20,941 --> 00:31:24,764 When people come to you for counsel, 682 00:31:24,764 --> 00:31:29,004 sometimes you're in a situation - 683 00:31:29,004 --> 00:31:31,009 he was a pastor's pastor. 684 00:31:31,009 --> 00:31:33,780 And people would come. 685 00:31:33,780 --> 00:31:36,835 There can be a time to express your opinion. 686 00:31:36,835 --> 00:31:38,712 I'll tell you this, 687 00:31:38,712 --> 00:31:41,598 if I feel like somebody is dangerous, 688 00:31:41,598 --> 00:31:43,561 I'm going to warn you about him. 689 00:31:43,561 --> 00:31:45,491 I'm going to warn the church about him. 690 00:31:45,491 --> 00:31:48,187 And if somebody says what do you think about so-and-so? 691 00:31:48,187 --> 00:31:50,399 I'm going to say I wouldn't go there. 692 00:31:50,399 --> 00:31:52,169 I'll tell you. Why? 693 00:31:52,169 --> 00:31:54,677 Because I want to protect you from poison. 694 00:31:54,677 --> 00:31:57,637 And listen, a man who will stand 695 00:31:57,637 --> 00:31:59,497 on a platform with a Catholic 696 00:31:59,497 --> 00:32:02,431 in my estimation is poison 697 00:32:02,431 --> 00:32:04,428 because what that tells me 698 00:32:04,428 --> 00:32:07,467 is he is compromising on the Gospel. 699 00:32:07,467 --> 00:32:10,490 And you know, how many years later, 700 00:32:10,490 --> 00:32:12,368 he sat down with Robert Schuller 701 00:32:12,368 --> 00:32:14,976 and he specifically said he believed 702 00:32:14,976 --> 00:32:17,230 there were other ways to God 703 00:32:17,230 --> 00:32:22,327 than by faith in Jesus Christ. 704 00:32:22,327 --> 00:32:27,577 See, that falls into the category of 2 John. 705 00:32:27,577 --> 00:32:32,158 And yes, when somebody is denying the Gospel 706 00:32:32,158 --> 00:32:35,447 and it's not a secondary issue - 707 00:32:35,447 --> 00:32:38,942 but we each have to study the Scriptures 708 00:32:38,942 --> 00:32:43,027 and determine what is a secondary issue. 709 00:32:43,027 --> 00:32:47,641 We all have to come to convictions on that ourselves. 710 00:32:47,641 --> 00:32:51,272 Secondary. 711 00:32:51,272 --> 00:32:55,474 Personally, I consider baptism - 712 00:32:55,474 --> 00:32:58,843 I would die for my baptistic convictions, 713 00:32:58,843 --> 00:33:01,791 but I wouldn't separate and disfellowship 714 00:33:01,791 --> 00:33:07,094 from somebody who was a paedobaptist. 715 00:33:07,094 --> 00:33:10,037 I think we need to allow 716 00:33:10,037 --> 00:33:13,496 for variations in church government. 717 00:33:13,496 --> 00:33:19,039 That is very secondary in my estimation. 718 00:33:19,039 --> 00:33:21,540 You know, people have ideas 719 00:33:21,540 --> 00:33:25,533 about closed communion 720 00:33:25,533 --> 00:33:28,481 or close communion or open communion. 721 00:33:28,481 --> 00:33:30,585 I'm not going to draw battle lines there. 722 00:33:30,585 --> 00:33:34,521 I have convictions about it. 723 00:33:34,521 --> 00:33:36,862 But I'll tell you, when somebody starts saying 724 00:33:36,862 --> 00:33:38,889 that they think there are Hindus 725 00:33:38,889 --> 00:33:41,349 and Muslims and Buddhists and atheists 726 00:33:41,349 --> 00:33:48,277 and that they're going to be in heaven with us, 727 00:33:48,277 --> 00:33:51,751 that is damnable lie right there. 728 00:33:51,751 --> 00:33:53,586 It doesn't matter who it comes from. 729 00:33:53,586 --> 00:33:57,984 Billy Graham - it doesn't matter. 730 00:33:57,984 --> 00:34:00,076 It is damnable error 731 00:34:00,076 --> 00:34:02,953 and we should avoid that like poison. 732 00:34:02,953 --> 00:34:05,824 We should not condone such people. 733 00:34:05,824 --> 00:34:07,289 (from the room) 734 00:34:07,289 --> 00:34:10,109 Do you think you can apply 1 Corinthians 15 735 00:34:10,109 --> 00:34:12,094 where I think Paul is talking about 736 00:34:12,094 --> 00:34:14,286 how bad company corrupts good morals 737 00:34:14,286 --> 00:34:16,686 and I think the context is about the resurrection? 738 00:34:16,686 --> 00:34:18,708 Tim: Well, it is about the resurrection 739 00:34:18,708 --> 00:34:21,077 and there were people denying the resurrection. 740 00:34:21,077 --> 00:34:23,836 (incomplete thought) 741 00:34:23,836 --> 00:34:28,491 But see, that's personally impacting us. 742 00:34:28,491 --> 00:34:33,060 That's personally me 743 00:34:33,060 --> 00:34:37,696 determining who I'm going to be companion to. 744 00:34:37,696 --> 00:34:40,397 And see, when it directly involves you, 745 00:34:40,397 --> 00:34:43,841 then yes, I think we have to weigh out, 746 00:34:43,841 --> 00:34:46,781 we have to discern. 747 00:34:46,781 --> 00:34:49,837 But there's so much happening out there 748 00:34:49,837 --> 00:34:51,942 that we can just get curious 749 00:34:51,942 --> 00:34:53,432 where all we do is sit there 750 00:34:53,432 --> 00:34:54,567 and read the blogs 751 00:34:54,567 --> 00:34:57,572 and read the latest stuff, 752 00:34:57,572 --> 00:35:00,653 the latest and greatest arguments 753 00:35:00,653 --> 00:35:02,054 and battles 754 00:35:02,054 --> 00:35:05,404 and be putting ourselves in this position 755 00:35:05,404 --> 00:35:06,964 or in this group 756 00:35:06,964 --> 00:35:08,993 or wanting to defend this or that. 757 00:35:08,993 --> 00:35:12,563 And we're just fighting this stuff all the time. 758 00:35:12,563 --> 00:35:14,568 Don't do that. 759 00:35:14,568 --> 00:35:16,751 Don't do that. 760 00:35:16,751 --> 00:35:20,382 We are called to serve the Lord. 761 00:35:20,382 --> 00:35:29,075 We are called to ministry. 762 00:35:29,075 --> 00:35:31,707 We are called to doing things 763 00:35:31,707 --> 00:35:36,854 like reaching out to those who sit in darkness, 764 00:35:36,854 --> 00:35:39,572 and clothing the naked, 765 00:35:39,572 --> 00:35:41,976 and visiting those who are in prison. 766 00:35:41,976 --> 00:35:45,456 I mean, think about it. 767 00:35:45,456 --> 00:35:47,707 Pure religion and undefiled before the Lord. 768 00:35:47,707 --> 00:35:49,483 What is it? 769 00:35:49,483 --> 00:35:51,643 Is it to sit and argue 770 00:35:51,643 --> 00:35:54,381 about guilt by association? 771 00:35:54,381 --> 00:35:57,605 Or is it to visit the widow and the orphan 772 00:35:57,605 --> 00:36:00,214 in their affliction? 773 00:36:00,214 --> 00:36:02,973 Well, it's not the first. 774 00:36:02,973 --> 00:36:07,462 So, let us follow Christ. 775 00:36:07,462 --> 00:36:12,174 It's kind of like remember how 776 00:36:12,174 --> 00:36:18,316 Peter - he said, "what about him?" 777 00:36:18,316 --> 00:36:20,451 You know, Peter, you're going to be 778 00:36:20,451 --> 00:36:22,894 led about where you don't want to go. 779 00:36:22,894 --> 00:36:27,525 He was looking at John: what about him? 780 00:36:27,525 --> 00:36:31,736 What was Jesus' timeless answer? 781 00:36:31,736 --> 00:36:34,595 (unintelligible) 782 00:36:34,595 --> 00:36:36,124 Exactly. 783 00:36:36,124 --> 00:36:38,037 "If I want him to remain until I come, 784 00:36:38,037 --> 00:36:40,652 what is that to you? 785 00:36:40,652 --> 00:36:43,972 You follow Me." 786 00:36:43,972 --> 00:36:45,620 See, we can spend all this time 787 00:36:45,620 --> 00:36:48,786 gazing off at the horizons; 788 00:36:48,786 --> 00:36:51,001 at what's happening in other people's lives, 789 00:36:51,001 --> 00:36:53,405 and what they're doing in their ministries. 790 00:36:53,405 --> 00:36:55,608 And Jesus is just saying: 791 00:36:55,608 --> 00:36:57,486 what does that have to do with you? 792 00:36:57,486 --> 00:36:59,525 You follow Me. 793 00:36:59,525 --> 00:37:00,522 (from the room) 794 00:37:00,522 --> 00:37:04,363 I want to speak to something that you referenced, 795 00:37:04,363 --> 00:37:05,963 because you gave an example 796 00:37:05,963 --> 00:37:09,551 of someone who would perhaps be blessed 797 00:37:09,551 --> 00:37:12,282 by a sermon by pastor A 798 00:37:12,282 --> 00:37:14,123 and someone else come along to them 799 00:37:14,123 --> 00:37:16,936 and start staying, well, did you know this? 800 00:37:16,936 --> 00:37:18,806 Do you think it's important 801 00:37:18,806 --> 00:37:22,182 for Christians who seem to be well meaning 802 00:37:22,182 --> 00:37:24,663 in doing that - because in your example, 803 00:37:24,663 --> 00:37:26,781 you said the person who was told that 804 00:37:26,781 --> 00:37:29,288 would say, yeah, you're right, but they bless me. 805 00:37:29,288 --> 00:37:30,993 But I think there's also the danger 806 00:37:30,993 --> 00:37:32,748 of that person perhaps not being 807 00:37:32,748 --> 00:37:35,063 in a position of maturity yet 808 00:37:35,063 --> 00:37:37,053 to where they're actually now bothered 809 00:37:37,053 --> 00:37:38,660 and can't listen anymore 810 00:37:38,660 --> 00:37:41,754 and now they're in almost this paranoid 811 00:37:41,754 --> 00:37:43,959 panic state where because of that 812 00:37:43,959 --> 00:37:47,044 well meaning, or maybe not so well meaning warning, 813 00:37:47,044 --> 00:37:50,131 this person - they can't listen to that person, 814 00:37:50,131 --> 00:37:51,903 not because they're well informed, 815 00:37:51,903 --> 00:37:54,340 but because their conscience might be weak. 816 00:37:54,340 --> 00:37:56,240 And I just think that that's something 817 00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:57,943 that's pretty probable, 818 00:37:57,943 --> 00:38:00,064 especially amonst people like us 819 00:38:00,064 --> 00:38:01,724 who we have a good grasp 820 00:38:01,724 --> 00:38:03,955 on what's true and what's not, 821 00:38:03,955 --> 00:38:05,929 but say a young convert comes in 822 00:38:05,929 --> 00:38:07,478 and they're listening to someone 823 00:38:07,478 --> 00:38:10,219 who in my estimation may be less favorable, 824 00:38:10,219 --> 00:38:11,929 may be less profitable, 825 00:38:11,929 --> 00:38:14,870 but that person is growing by them, 826 00:38:14,870 --> 00:38:16,385 and so by me telling them, 827 00:38:16,385 --> 00:38:18,413 I also run the risk of maybe putting them 828 00:38:18,413 --> 00:38:20,309 in a position where they shouldn't be 829 00:38:20,309 --> 00:38:22,840 as far as them being unable to listen 830 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:28,884 to that person. 831 00:38:28,884 --> 00:38:30,313 Tim: Yeah, I mean, again 832 00:38:30,313 --> 00:38:32,775 it might be one of the places to leave them alone. 833 00:38:32,775 --> 00:38:34,746 (from the room) Leave both people alone. 834 00:38:34,746 --> 00:38:36,429 Tim: Right. Exactly. 835 00:38:36,429 --> 00:38:37,659 Leave them alone. 836 00:38:37,659 --> 00:38:39,507 If I hear somebody in the church 837 00:38:39,507 --> 00:38:41,532 is saying I'm really profiting 838 00:38:41,532 --> 00:38:43,549 from pastor so-and-so. 839 00:38:43,549 --> 00:38:46,580 And it's like, well, they wouldn't be my first choice 840 00:38:46,580 --> 00:38:48,028 or my tenth choice, 841 00:38:48,028 --> 00:38:49,774 but if they're profiting from it... 842 00:38:49,774 --> 00:38:50,706 (from the room) 843 00:38:50,706 --> 00:38:53,111 And I say that because that can be hard sometimes. 844 00:38:53,111 --> 00:38:55,352 Because exactly like you said, 845 00:38:55,352 --> 00:38:59,145 they're way down the list. 846 00:38:59,145 --> 00:39:04,264 Tim: Right. Okay.