1 00:00:00,988 --> 00:00:02,452 The first question: 2 00:00:02,452 --> 00:00:06,339 You pastored one church for 50 years in Wales. 3 00:00:06,339 --> 00:00:08,354 What was the most difficult aspect 4 00:00:08,354 --> 00:00:10,482 of the ministry for you? 5 00:00:10,482 --> 00:00:13,271 Geoff: I don't think any of it was easy. 6 00:00:13,271 --> 00:00:16,663 I don't think any of it should have been easy. 7 00:00:16,663 --> 00:00:19,756 I was taking up my cross 8 00:00:19,756 --> 00:00:21,432 and denying myself 9 00:00:21,432 --> 00:00:24,767 and following the Lord Jesus, wasn't I? 10 00:00:24,767 --> 00:00:27,692 So that dare not become easy 11 00:00:27,692 --> 00:00:31,367 that I was doing it on the way to something else. 12 00:00:31,367 --> 00:00:36,501 So, preaching - learning your trade. 13 00:00:36,501 --> 00:00:39,616 I came out of seminary 14 00:00:39,616 --> 00:00:42,722 and I was used to being with a lot of guys 15 00:00:42,722 --> 00:00:44,232 my own age, 16 00:00:44,232 --> 00:00:47,684 and with the tastes and interests 17 00:00:47,684 --> 00:00:51,822 of 24 year olds. 18 00:00:51,822 --> 00:00:55,655 And I'm here with working men 19 00:00:55,655 --> 00:00:58,020 and old people and children, 20 00:00:58,020 --> 00:01:01,483 and my first baby's just arrived, 21 00:01:01,483 --> 00:01:05,810 and I've got to communicate then. 22 00:01:05,810 --> 00:01:09,985 So that was difficult. 23 00:01:09,985 --> 00:01:12,322 Having a high view of preaching the Word of God 24 00:01:12,322 --> 00:01:15,895 and going through all the Bible to preach it. 25 00:01:15,895 --> 00:01:19,335 And not having the capacity to preach through Genesis 26 00:01:19,335 --> 00:01:21,708 as I chose to in the beginning. 27 00:01:21,708 --> 00:01:25,008 That was just very difficult. 28 00:01:25,008 --> 00:01:27,974 And then pastoring 29 00:01:27,974 --> 00:01:29,837 with such a mixed congregation. 30 00:01:29,837 --> 00:01:31,732 A third hardly came to church 31 00:01:31,732 --> 00:01:33,698 and we had to get rid of them. 32 00:01:33,698 --> 00:01:35,694 And a third only came once, 33 00:01:35,694 --> 00:01:38,458 and I didn't know where they were. 34 00:01:38,458 --> 00:01:41,037 They didn't know where they were 35 00:01:41,037 --> 00:01:43,695 in their spiritual understanding. 36 00:01:43,695 --> 00:01:46,995 And a third were there - the supporters were there 37 00:01:46,995 --> 00:01:50,081 and they were good and they kept me. 38 00:01:50,081 --> 00:01:54,081 So, the preparation of the preaching 39 00:01:54,081 --> 00:01:55,741 was heavy at times 40 00:01:55,741 --> 00:01:57,887 because you're learning. 41 00:01:57,887 --> 00:02:05,474 You haven't got enough experience 42 00:02:05,474 --> 00:02:08,527 enlightened by telling stories 43 00:02:08,527 --> 00:02:10,688 of where you've been. 44 00:02:10,688 --> 00:02:12,415 Like this afternoon, I could tell 45 00:02:12,415 --> 00:02:14,267 the story of a man I helped, 46 00:02:14,267 --> 00:02:16,079 and how his life was changed. 47 00:02:16,079 --> 00:02:18,116 That was all in the future. 48 00:02:18,116 --> 00:02:26,429 So learning those early years were difficult. 49 00:02:26,429 --> 00:02:29,006 But I had all the freshness then 50 00:02:29,006 --> 00:02:31,009 and the zeal and a happy marriage 51 00:02:31,009 --> 00:02:32,802 and that was all fun. 52 00:02:32,802 --> 00:02:34,671 None of it was easy, 53 00:02:34,671 --> 00:02:38,128 but none of it was impossible. 54 00:02:38,128 --> 00:02:40,323 That was the situation that God 55 00:02:40,323 --> 00:02:43,279 puts every preacher into. 56 00:02:43,279 --> 00:02:46,820 I think pastoring also is very difficult visiting. 57 00:02:46,820 --> 00:02:48,979 When there are young couples 58 00:02:48,979 --> 00:02:51,002 and they've got their children 59 00:02:51,002 --> 00:02:52,155 in the evening. 60 00:02:52,155 --> 00:02:54,126 The man's out at work in the day. 61 00:02:54,126 --> 00:02:58,552 You're not going to visit his wife by yourself. 62 00:02:58,552 --> 00:03:02,128 They're preparing the children for bed. 63 00:03:02,128 --> 00:03:05,843 They really aren't free until 8, 8:30, 64 00:03:05,843 --> 00:03:07,686 and then they're getting tired. 65 00:03:07,686 --> 00:03:12,853 I don't know how you get around that. 66 00:03:12,853 --> 00:03:16,101 I did some visiting in the evenings 67 00:03:16,101 --> 00:03:18,776 to people who didn't have children. 68 00:03:18,776 --> 00:03:21,479 Question: If you could do it all over again, 69 00:03:21,479 --> 00:03:22,695 what would be the things 70 00:03:22,695 --> 00:03:26,093 that you would change or do differently? 71 00:03:26,093 --> 00:03:27,435 Geoff: Well, of course, 72 00:03:27,435 --> 00:03:30,322 if you have a chance of doing a thing all over again, 73 00:03:30,322 --> 00:03:32,790 you might be worse the second time 74 00:03:32,790 --> 00:03:34,515 than the first time. 75 00:03:34,515 --> 00:03:38,724 So, you really have to accept 76 00:03:38,724 --> 00:03:41,831 where God has put you at that time. 77 00:03:41,831 --> 00:03:43,326 What I would do over again, 78 00:03:43,326 --> 00:03:49,114 I wouldn't do a Martyn Lloyd-Jones 79 00:03:49,114 --> 00:03:51,415 expository discourse in the morning 80 00:03:51,415 --> 00:03:53,895 and the evening service. 81 00:03:53,895 --> 00:03:56,109 I would do a Spurgeon in the evenings. 82 00:03:56,109 --> 00:03:59,859 I would preach on the big texts in the evenings. 83 00:03:59,859 --> 00:04:02,425 And I would just do exposition 84 00:04:02,425 --> 00:04:05,102 in the mornings. 85 00:04:05,102 --> 00:04:08,633 And I wouldn't have this goal then 86 00:04:08,633 --> 00:04:11,921 of needing to preach through all the Bible 87 00:04:11,921 --> 00:04:13,459 on a Sunday. 88 00:04:13,459 --> 00:04:18,016 I would think that's too much for most men 89 00:04:18,016 --> 00:04:20,030 to preach through Jeremiah 90 00:04:20,030 --> 00:04:23,913 and Ezekiel and Isaiah 91 00:04:23,913 --> 00:04:25,831 and the minor prophets, for example, 92 00:04:25,831 --> 00:04:26,860 and Leviticus, 93 00:04:26,860 --> 00:04:28,418 and think you have to go through 94 00:04:28,418 --> 00:04:31,369 all those books - and Job. 95 00:04:31,369 --> 00:04:35,075 You've got to be an absolutely brilliant preacher to do that. 96 00:04:35,075 --> 00:04:37,862 And that would only come 97 00:04:37,862 --> 00:04:40,469 after you'd been preaching for many years 98 00:04:40,469 --> 00:04:42,277 and were familiar with the Bible 99 00:04:42,277 --> 00:04:49,142 and familiar with the history of redemption. 100 00:04:49,142 --> 00:04:52,155 You know how Dale Ralph Davis, 101 00:04:52,155 --> 00:04:58,048 how he makes the Old Testament preaching 102 00:04:58,048 --> 00:05:00,936 and his commentaries vital 103 00:05:00,936 --> 00:05:03,347 by his illustrations. 104 00:05:03,347 --> 00:05:06,720 He has a keen ear and eye 105 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,385 for that which can illustrate. 106 00:05:09,385 --> 00:05:14,695 And I would think 107 00:05:14,695 --> 00:05:17,353 if you don't have that, 108 00:05:17,353 --> 00:05:19,266 stay out of that. 109 00:05:19,266 --> 00:05:22,989 And concentrate on the New Testament epistles 110 00:05:22,989 --> 00:05:24,782 and the Gospels. 111 00:05:24,782 --> 00:05:30,167 And then, the life of Elijah 112 00:05:30,167 --> 00:05:32,906 and the life of David, 113 00:05:32,906 --> 00:05:35,032 Joseph's life. 114 00:05:35,032 --> 00:05:40,907 I would think the early chapters of Daniel, 115 00:05:40,907 --> 00:05:42,685 the visions of Zechariah. 116 00:05:42,685 --> 00:05:44,961 I don't think you have to do the whole book. 117 00:05:44,961 --> 00:05:46,804 But do that in the mornings. 118 00:05:46,804 --> 00:05:48,151 Those from the New Testament 119 00:05:48,151 --> 00:05:49,787 and those from the Old Testament. 120 00:05:49,787 --> 00:05:51,060 And then in the evenings, 121 00:05:51,060 --> 00:05:53,884 "Look unto Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth." 122 00:05:53,884 --> 00:05:55,935 "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life, 123 00:05:55,935 --> 00:05:58,071 no one comes to the Father but by Me." 124 00:05:58,071 --> 00:06:00,136 "The Lord is good; 125 00:06:00,136 --> 00:06:02,120 a stronghold in the day of trouble. 126 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,578 He knoweth them that trust in Him." 127 00:06:04,578 --> 00:06:07,684 You know, the big verses of Scripture 128 00:06:07,684 --> 00:06:09,515 that Spurgeon preached on. 129 00:06:09,515 --> 00:06:11,012 I should have done that. 130 00:06:11,012 --> 00:06:12,707 I should have learned how to preach 131 00:06:12,707 --> 00:06:14,203 on the big verses. 132 00:06:14,203 --> 00:06:17,652 That would have been more helpful. 133 00:06:17,652 --> 00:06:20,469 Question: As far as your own personal walk with Christ, 134 00:06:20,469 --> 00:06:21,708 what can you look back on 135 00:06:21,708 --> 00:06:24,540 and say you wish you had done differently? 136 00:06:24,540 --> 00:06:26,601 Geoff: I wish I'd got more fixed 137 00:06:26,601 --> 00:06:31,548 into a routine about daily praying 138 00:06:31,548 --> 00:06:33,604 and personal devotions. 139 00:06:33,604 --> 00:06:35,632 Like, I have a diary, 140 00:06:35,632 --> 00:06:38,620 and since 1977, I write 300 words, 141 00:06:38,620 --> 00:06:42,293 every day and I'm into a routine for that. 142 00:06:42,293 --> 00:06:43,954 And brushing my teeth - 143 00:06:43,954 --> 00:06:47,973 I'm in a routine to do that. 144 00:06:47,973 --> 00:06:53,554 I should have been more drilled 145 00:06:53,554 --> 00:07:00,892 into a personal devotion period, 146 00:07:00,892 --> 00:07:05,023 and not being as haphazard shamefully 147 00:07:05,023 --> 00:07:08,063 as I have been. 148 00:07:08,063 --> 00:07:13,414 Yeah, that's one major regret. 149 00:07:13,414 --> 00:07:14,544 Question: On that note, 150 00:07:14,544 --> 00:07:18,531 what's something that's helped you in praying? 151 00:07:18,531 --> 00:07:26,954 Geoff: Having a wife that needed prayer 152 00:07:26,954 --> 00:07:31,908 and praying with her every day. 153 00:07:31,908 --> 00:07:33,420 That helped. 154 00:07:33,420 --> 00:07:36,510 And then the book, 155 00:07:36,510 --> 00:07:39,970 the Bible in a year, 156 00:07:39,970 --> 00:07:42,524 not the one that you don't start 157 00:07:42,524 --> 00:07:44,163 the New Testament until October. 158 00:07:44,163 --> 00:07:45,080 Not that one. 159 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:46,523 I don't think that's helpful. 160 00:07:46,523 --> 00:07:48,405 I don't think nine months of every year 161 00:07:48,405 --> 00:07:50,551 should be just in reading the Old Testament. 162 00:07:50,551 --> 00:07:52,297 But there are others which you read 163 00:07:52,297 --> 00:07:54,283 portions from the Old and New Testaments, 164 00:07:54,283 --> 00:07:56,114 Psalms and Proverbs, 165 00:07:56,114 --> 00:07:58,071 and just set out every day 166 00:07:58,071 --> 00:07:59,603 and that's helpful. 167 00:07:59,603 --> 00:08:02,530 I'm glad about that. 168 00:08:02,530 --> 00:08:05,508 And that I used as well. 169 00:08:05,508 --> 00:08:10,823 And then a card with the days of the week 170 00:08:10,823 --> 00:08:12,646 and the people in the church 171 00:08:12,646 --> 00:08:14,460 and missionaries and friends 172 00:08:14,460 --> 00:08:17,335 and needs that you add to, 173 00:08:17,335 --> 00:08:19,460 and those practical helps 174 00:08:19,460 --> 00:08:21,821 so that you are not repeating. 175 00:08:21,821 --> 00:08:24,342 I like what Don Whitney writes 176 00:08:24,342 --> 00:08:27,735 on praying Scripture. 177 00:08:27,735 --> 00:08:30,972 That you find something that strikes you 178 00:08:30,972 --> 00:08:32,534 and then you pray through it 179 00:08:32,534 --> 00:08:35,195 phrase by phrase. 180 00:08:35,195 --> 00:08:37,936 That's helpful. 181 00:08:37,936 --> 00:08:40,663 If you want to humble a minister, 182 00:08:40,663 --> 00:08:45,256 you talk to him about his praying. 183 00:08:45,256 --> 00:08:48,787 And that's true for me. 184 00:08:48,787 --> 00:08:50,207 Question: How can a pastor 185 00:08:50,207 --> 00:08:51,663 deal with discouragement 186 00:08:51,663 --> 00:08:53,119 when he has to keep preaching 187 00:08:53,119 --> 00:08:55,342 through times of difficulty? 188 00:08:55,342 --> 00:08:57,662 Geoff: Well, I've always found that preaching 189 00:08:57,662 --> 00:09:01,795 is the thing that you preach to yourself. 190 00:09:01,795 --> 00:09:03,684 Systematic expository preaching - 191 00:09:03,684 --> 00:09:06,456 it's so frequent in the Bible - 192 00:09:06,456 --> 00:09:08,781 there are people that are discouraged 193 00:09:08,781 --> 00:09:09,885 who go to God. 194 00:09:09,885 --> 00:09:11,665 I don't just mean in the Psalms 195 00:09:11,665 --> 00:09:14,007 or in Paul to the Philippians. 196 00:09:14,007 --> 00:09:17,677 But again and again, 197 00:09:17,677 --> 00:09:21,819 there are challenges. 198 00:09:21,819 --> 00:09:23,574 In the life of Moses, 199 00:09:23,574 --> 00:09:25,052 many discouragements. 200 00:09:25,052 --> 00:09:29,568 Life of David and Jonah. 201 00:09:29,568 --> 00:09:31,273 The Lord Jesus, 202 00:09:31,273 --> 00:09:33,269 and people not understanding Him 203 00:09:33,269 --> 00:09:34,874 and opposing Him. 204 00:09:34,874 --> 00:09:37,956 So, you find that in the Bible. 205 00:09:37,956 --> 00:09:39,771 And when you preach about it 206 00:09:39,771 --> 00:09:41,363 to people in the congregation, 207 00:09:41,363 --> 00:09:43,232 you discover how many of them 208 00:09:43,232 --> 00:09:44,897 are often discouraged 209 00:09:44,897 --> 00:09:46,663 and fiery darts are there, 210 00:09:46,663 --> 00:09:51,545 and how they were delivered. 211 00:09:51,545 --> 00:09:53,384 How Jesus says, 212 00:09:53,384 --> 00:09:55,173 "Nevertheless, not My will, 213 00:09:55,173 --> 00:09:57,682 but Thine be done." 214 00:09:57,682 --> 00:10:04,185 How He chose as His first calling 215 00:10:04,185 --> 00:10:07,477 to accept the Father's will - 216 00:10:07,477 --> 00:10:10,423 whatever God's will is for Him is right. 217 00:10:10,423 --> 00:10:15,998 And I think it's that movement 218 00:10:15,998 --> 00:10:18,583 in our lives to submit. 219 00:10:18,583 --> 00:10:21,389 I don't think I've had problems 220 00:10:21,389 --> 00:10:22,696 when my wife died. 221 00:10:22,696 --> 00:10:28,671 I never questioned God's right to take her. 222 00:10:28,671 --> 00:10:31,914 Yeah, submission to God's will. 223 00:10:31,914 --> 00:10:34,251 I think I didn't have to be tested. 224 00:10:34,251 --> 00:10:37,800 There were tests earlier on. 225 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:42,786 I had to make some costly choices 226 00:10:42,786 --> 00:10:47,956 to show that I was prepared to give up things 227 00:10:47,956 --> 00:10:49,788 for the will of God. 228 00:10:49,788 --> 00:10:51,164 And when God tested me 229 00:10:51,164 --> 00:10:53,103 and I came through those tests, 230 00:10:53,103 --> 00:10:55,105 He didn't continue to test me. 231 00:10:55,105 --> 00:10:57,085 There were other challenges then 232 00:10:57,085 --> 00:11:00,835 in the Christian life. 233 00:11:00,835 --> 00:11:03,450 So, discouragements I think, 234 00:11:03,450 --> 00:11:05,358 you preach to yourself. 235 00:11:05,358 --> 00:11:10,869 And so often, at the end of a Lord's Day, 236 00:11:10,869 --> 00:11:13,464 you are blessed. 237 00:11:13,464 --> 00:11:15,358 You've met with the people of God 238 00:11:15,358 --> 00:11:18,947 and you've heard them pray. 239 00:11:18,947 --> 00:11:21,561 I can't think of any other way 240 00:11:21,561 --> 00:11:26,333 than not neglecting assembling yourself 241 00:11:26,333 --> 00:11:28,236 with other Christians on Sunday 242 00:11:28,236 --> 00:11:33,435 as the prime way of dealing with discouragement. 243 00:11:33,435 --> 00:11:35,630 Question: What would be some of the common 244 00:11:35,630 --> 00:11:37,123 fiery darts of the enemy 245 00:11:37,123 --> 00:11:40,394 that have attacked you in your own life? 246 00:11:40,394 --> 00:11:41,619 Geoff: Greed, 247 00:11:41,619 --> 00:11:44,086 laziness, 248 00:11:44,086 --> 00:11:46,929 lust, 249 00:11:46,929 --> 00:11:48,371 covetousness, 250 00:11:48,371 --> 00:11:49,369 pride... 251 00:11:49,369 --> 00:11:51,231 oh, especially pride. 252 00:11:51,231 --> 00:11:53,563 Question: What specifics about pride - 253 00:11:53,563 --> 00:11:58,011 the subtleties of it - have you seen? 254 00:11:58,011 --> 00:12:00,477 Geoff: You've had help on a Sunday. 255 00:12:00,477 --> 00:12:06,208 You've had invitations to speak 256 00:12:06,208 --> 00:12:07,890 and you've been helped 257 00:12:07,890 --> 00:12:11,484 in addressing conferences. 258 00:12:11,484 --> 00:12:16,177 And you've got a whisper in one ear 259 00:12:16,177 --> 00:12:19,121 saying, "You're a great guy." 260 00:12:19,121 --> 00:12:21,724 And then you've got a whisper in another ear 261 00:12:21,724 --> 00:12:23,320 saying, "If they knew your heart, 262 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:24,363 how sinful you are, 263 00:12:24,363 --> 00:12:27,038 you wouldn't be talking like that." 264 00:12:27,038 --> 00:12:32,040 So, it's the 2 Corinthians 12 situation 265 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:34,971 of the thorn in the flesh 266 00:12:34,971 --> 00:12:37,904 given to him to prevent him being puffed up. 267 00:12:37,904 --> 00:12:40,706 Because a puffed up minister is useless. 268 00:12:40,706 --> 00:12:43,862 So he's humbled 269 00:12:43,862 --> 00:12:45,831 and he knows he can only get by 270 00:12:45,831 --> 00:12:47,915 and do what God wants him to do 271 00:12:47,915 --> 00:12:52,483 by God's grace. 272 00:12:52,483 --> 00:12:54,545 And so all the time, 273 00:12:54,545 --> 00:12:57,305 God resists the proud, 274 00:12:57,305 --> 00:12:59,953 and then God gives grace to the humble. 275 00:12:59,953 --> 00:13:03,160 And God humbles you to receive grace. 276 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,342 Question: If you could go back in time 277 00:13:05,342 --> 00:13:07,310 to the first day of your ministry 278 00:13:07,310 --> 00:13:09,663 and speak to a young Geoff Thomas, 279 00:13:09,663 --> 00:13:10,895 what would you tell him 280 00:13:10,895 --> 00:13:14,898 and most stress to him? 281 00:13:14,898 --> 00:13:18,082 Geoff: I'm glad of this opportunity 282 00:13:18,082 --> 00:13:22,568 that I've got now to be in a new church, 283 00:13:22,568 --> 00:13:25,469 and I'm preaching regularly there. 284 00:13:25,469 --> 00:13:28,494 And I'm preaching with the coolness 285 00:13:28,494 --> 00:13:33,271 and experience that could only have come to me 286 00:13:33,271 --> 00:13:40,796 by my history until now. 287 00:13:40,796 --> 00:13:49,288 And so I'm a better preacher. 288 00:13:49,288 --> 00:13:52,548 Sanctification is effectual 289 00:13:52,558 --> 00:13:55,655 in all the elect of God. 290 00:13:55,655 --> 00:13:59,650 And so I'm a wiser, humbler, 291 00:13:59,650 --> 00:14:03,566 holier, more loving, happier Christian 292 00:14:03,566 --> 00:14:07,729 than I was 50 years ago. 293 00:14:07,729 --> 00:14:13,895 And so I love that young man. 294 00:14:13,895 --> 00:14:18,494 I love his priorities, his zeal. 295 00:14:18,494 --> 00:14:20,637 The things he wanted to do, 296 00:14:20,637 --> 00:14:25,815 he wanted to make this an evangelical church. 297 00:14:25,815 --> 00:14:29,552 He wanted to make it a reformed, 298 00:14:29,552 --> 00:14:32,558 confessional church. 299 00:14:32,558 --> 00:14:35,350 And it took a long time, 300 00:14:35,350 --> 00:14:41,276 but I would say to him: go for it! 301 00:14:41,276 --> 00:14:44,749 That's a great vision to have. 302 00:14:44,749 --> 00:14:47,189 It can be done. 303 00:14:47,189 --> 00:14:48,685 It was worth it for Wales. 304 00:14:48,685 --> 00:14:52,677 It was worth it for Aberystwyth 305 00:14:52,677 --> 00:14:56,006 and this chapel in particular. 306 00:14:56,006 --> 00:14:59,951 It was worth sacrificing anything 307 00:14:59,951 --> 00:15:07,046 and everything to serve that end. 308 00:15:07,046 --> 00:15:14,156 And I would encourage him to keep going. 309 00:15:14,156 --> 00:15:16,124 God encouraged me 310 00:15:16,124 --> 00:15:21,451 and I'm just putting myself back 311 00:15:21,451 --> 00:15:26,785 and seeing how God did keep me going 312 00:15:26,785 --> 00:15:28,311 on that narrow path 313 00:15:28,311 --> 00:15:34,070 and fulfilled these things for me then. 314 00:15:34,070 --> 00:15:36,769 Question: At the prayer meeting on Wednesday night, 315 00:15:36,769 --> 00:15:39,392 you mentioned that there were some areas in your life 316 00:15:39,392 --> 00:15:41,575 that you felt like were really critical 317 00:15:41,575 --> 00:15:42,921 to not let slip. 318 00:15:42,921 --> 00:15:45,310 What areas were you referring to 319 00:15:45,310 --> 00:15:47,590 and what are you doing to not slip 320 00:15:47,590 --> 00:15:49,930 in those areas? 321 00:15:49,930 --> 00:15:53,914 Geoff: The discipline of time. 322 00:15:53,914 --> 00:15:57,192 That's the real challenge. 323 00:15:57,192 --> 00:15:59,517 I haven't got any hours now. 324 00:15:59,517 --> 00:16:00,906 I've not no deadlines. 325 00:16:00,906 --> 00:16:13,475 I haven't got to get two sermons ready by Friday. 326 00:16:13,475 --> 00:16:16,677 Not filling my time with things I like doing 327 00:16:16,677 --> 00:16:20,471 and choosing the good 328 00:16:20,471 --> 00:16:25,329 as over the best. 329 00:16:25,329 --> 00:16:27,373 I've got to have that. 330 00:16:27,373 --> 00:16:31,420 I've got to really go for the best use 331 00:16:31,420 --> 00:16:37,541 of my last remaining years. 332 00:16:37,541 --> 00:16:44,186 Those are my chief concerns just now. 333 00:16:44,186 --> 00:16:50,822 So that I am still studying 334 00:16:50,822 --> 00:16:54,615 and still honing my skills 335 00:16:54,615 --> 00:16:57,742 in communicating, in writing, 336 00:16:57,742 --> 00:17:02,890 being concerned for my family 337 00:17:02,890 --> 00:17:07,453 in a new sphere now in which my wife 338 00:17:07,453 --> 00:17:10,368 will not be the mother of these children 339 00:17:10,368 --> 00:17:13,859 and so will not have the same intimacy with them 340 00:17:13,859 --> 00:17:18,606 that their mother had who died two years ago. 341 00:17:18,606 --> 00:17:22,177 I could easily drift into neglecting 342 00:17:22,177 --> 00:17:25,087 those who will always be my daughters 343 00:17:25,087 --> 00:17:29,756 and my sons-in-law and my grandchildren. 344 00:17:29,756 --> 00:17:33,493 My responsibility to, in every way, 345 00:17:33,493 --> 00:17:35,958 be a model to them in old age 346 00:17:35,958 --> 00:17:38,332 of joyfully serving the Lord 347 00:17:38,332 --> 00:17:43,091 and walking humbly with God to heaven. 348 00:17:43,091 --> 00:17:46,185 That's what I wish to do. 349 00:17:46,185 --> 00:17:49,362 That's what I want to do. 350 00:17:49,362 --> 00:17:53,649 I want to be on guard. 351 00:17:53,649 --> 00:17:55,791 I don't want to throw my weight around 352 00:17:55,791 --> 00:18:05,228 because now I'm older than everybody 353 00:18:05,228 --> 00:18:07,755 and can pontificate 354 00:18:07,755 --> 00:18:09,633 and expect to be listened to 355 00:18:09,633 --> 00:18:12,425 simply because I'm older than them. 356 00:18:12,425 --> 00:18:14,128 As a young man, 357 00:18:14,128 --> 00:18:18,120 I had older ministers talking down to me 358 00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:20,722 about that sort of thing. 359 00:18:20,722 --> 00:18:24,056 They were saying, "You learn." 360 00:18:24,056 --> 00:18:27,362 I know they had compromised morally 361 00:18:27,362 --> 00:18:30,108 and they had compromised theologically 362 00:18:30,108 --> 00:18:34,049 and spiritually. 363 00:18:34,049 --> 00:18:36,091 I didn't want to be like them. 364 00:18:36,091 --> 00:18:38,745 I'm not the young, frustrated man now. 365 00:18:38,745 --> 00:18:41,702 I don't want to throw my weight around. 366 00:18:41,702 --> 00:18:44,927 I believe every minister's on the same level, 367 00:18:44,927 --> 00:18:47,537 and that I can learn from all the young men here 368 00:18:47,537 --> 00:18:53,921 who befriended me and talked to me. 369 00:18:53,921 --> 00:18:56,358 They have much to teach me 370 00:18:56,358 --> 00:18:58,468 and I can teach them too. 371 00:18:58,468 --> 00:19:02,017 So, all preachers on the same level 372 00:19:02,017 --> 00:19:05,082 and elders - helpful. 373 00:19:05,082 --> 00:19:08,104 And in the lottery of who you sit next to at the table, 374 00:19:08,104 --> 00:19:11,642 and talk to people, you learn from them. 375 00:19:11,642 --> 00:19:14,864 That's just such a blessing of a conference. 376 00:19:14,864 --> 00:19:18,746 The messages are a bonus this week, aren't they. 377 00:19:18,746 --> 00:19:26,270 The real benefits come from our rubbing shoulders with 378 00:19:26,270 --> 00:19:30,019 and influencing and advising 379 00:19:30,019 --> 00:19:32,431 and learning from men, 380 00:19:32,431 --> 00:19:37,097 and especially the women that are here. 381 00:19:37,097 --> 00:19:41,379 Their concerns and compassion. 382 00:19:41,379 --> 00:19:43,441 Question: What are the biggest dangers 383 00:19:43,441 --> 00:19:45,470 confronting the church today? 384 00:19:45,470 --> 00:19:47,918 The reformed church specifically? 385 00:19:47,918 --> 00:19:49,520 Geoff: Well, the reformed church 386 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,646 is in middle age in Britain. 387 00:19:52,646 --> 00:19:57,945 And the mid-stream of any river 388 00:19:57,945 --> 00:20:00,957 is the deepest and the most challenging. 389 00:20:00,957 --> 00:20:03,487 When you start off, it's shallow 390 00:20:03,487 --> 00:20:04,748 and you can paddle in 391 00:20:04,748 --> 00:20:07,560 and you can resist the current. 392 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:08,717 But the deeper you go, 393 00:20:08,717 --> 00:20:10,050 the more powerful it is, 394 00:20:10,050 --> 00:20:11,944 and the more you've got to resist it. 395 00:20:11,944 --> 00:20:14,423 And at the end when you come out the other side, 396 00:20:14,423 --> 00:20:15,598 then it gets shallower 397 00:20:15,598 --> 00:20:17,533 and you can see the end 398 00:20:17,533 --> 00:20:19,452 and a few more steps and you're out 399 00:20:19,452 --> 00:20:21,132 and that's a great encouragement. 400 00:20:21,132 --> 00:20:24,281 Mid-stream you don't have those things. 401 00:20:24,281 --> 00:20:26,303 And we are in middle age now. 402 00:20:26,303 --> 00:20:28,315 We're established. 403 00:20:28,315 --> 00:20:32,361 University towns have got free grace pulpits - 404 00:20:32,361 --> 00:20:34,976 six of them in Wales, 405 00:20:34,976 --> 00:20:39,175 and there is the Bible belt 406 00:20:39,175 --> 00:20:42,863 that stretches right across South Wales 407 00:20:42,863 --> 00:20:45,723 where the majority of the people live. 408 00:20:45,723 --> 00:20:51,069 There are churches you can go to. 409 00:20:51,069 --> 00:20:58,515 It's the enticement of the new. 410 00:20:58,515 --> 00:21:00,576 That's the challenge - 411 00:21:00,576 --> 00:21:02,868 that is a challenge. 412 00:21:02,868 --> 00:21:08,583 Then, new songs and the neglect 413 00:21:08,583 --> 00:21:18,520 of the whole riches of hymnology. 414 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:28,305 Moses' psalm written 1,400 years before Christ. 415 00:21:28,305 --> 00:21:35,464 And then the paraphrases of the New Testament. 416 00:21:35,464 --> 00:21:39,497 Bernard of Clairveaux, Luther, 417 00:21:39,497 --> 00:21:42,197 John Mason of the Puritan period, 418 00:21:42,197 --> 00:21:44,060 and then Wesley, 419 00:21:44,060 --> 00:21:46,506 and then Watts - 420 00:21:46,506 --> 00:21:49,073 the whole vast riches; 421 00:21:49,073 --> 00:21:51,280 the words so wonderful. 422 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,249 There have been lovely tunes written 423 00:21:53,249 --> 00:21:55,824 that have revived some of them - overdone. 424 00:21:55,824 --> 00:22:03,692 But that's been the case. 425 00:22:03,692 --> 00:22:08,539 They're jazzed up a bit. 426 00:22:08,539 --> 00:22:11,530 We've moved to listening to a group singing 427 00:22:11,530 --> 00:22:15,230 and then our own voices drop. 428 00:22:15,230 --> 00:22:18,820 That's a danger. 429 00:22:18,820 --> 00:22:24,034 Worldliness and personality cult. 430 00:22:24,034 --> 00:22:29,028 Those are the sorts of dangers. 431 00:22:29,028 --> 00:22:34,888 We haven't got the big personalities any longer. 432 00:22:34,888 --> 00:22:38,377 Now that Dr. Lloyd-Jones has left us, 433 00:22:38,377 --> 00:22:40,704 there is no one person 434 00:22:40,704 --> 00:22:43,379 who you can announce he's preaching 435 00:22:43,379 --> 00:22:46,467 and people will come and hear. 436 00:22:46,467 --> 00:22:49,828 Those days have gone. 437 00:22:49,828 --> 00:22:53,520 God's way now for the reformed church 438 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:58,682 is a very modest way, but very powerful. 439 00:22:58,682 --> 00:23:04,115 We've got our congregations smaller, 440 00:23:04,115 --> 00:23:06,342 unknown by the world. 441 00:23:06,342 --> 00:23:09,497 We've got Christian families - 442 00:23:09,497 --> 00:23:12,187 children are taught and raised 443 00:23:12,187 --> 00:23:14,382 in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. 444 00:23:14,382 --> 00:23:15,644 There's homeschooling, 445 00:23:15,644 --> 00:23:17,216 Christian schools. 446 00:23:17,216 --> 00:23:19,319 There are websites. 447 00:23:19,319 --> 00:23:21,311 There are magazines. 448 00:23:21,311 --> 00:23:26,027 There are publishing houses. 449 00:23:26,027 --> 00:23:27,989 There are Christian conferences 450 00:23:27,989 --> 00:23:31,913 and ministers return those in conferences? 451 00:23:31,913 --> 00:23:35,297 And we meet together and arrange our next meetings 452 00:23:35,297 --> 00:23:39,625 and speak, discuss moral and theological issues 453 00:23:39,625 --> 00:23:41,496 confronting the church. 454 00:23:41,496 --> 00:23:43,054 And it's all done - 455 00:23:43,054 --> 00:23:47,571 it's very, very big, 456 00:23:47,571 --> 00:23:50,421 right across England, Wales, 457 00:23:50,421 --> 00:23:52,157 Scotland, Ireland. 458 00:23:52,157 --> 00:23:53,961 There are these networks 459 00:23:53,961 --> 00:23:56,634 and there is this work going on. 460 00:23:56,634 --> 00:23:59,453 And it's the same in America too. 461 00:23:59,453 --> 00:24:00,873 Just the same. 462 00:24:00,873 --> 00:24:03,330 There are one or two famous people, 463 00:24:03,330 --> 00:24:04,978 but there aren't many, 464 00:24:04,978 --> 00:24:07,967 and that isn't God's way. 465 00:24:07,967 --> 00:24:10,860 God's way now is just protecting us 466 00:24:10,860 --> 00:24:15,597 by our smallness 467 00:24:15,597 --> 00:24:21,305 and encouraging us in our strengths of conviction. 468 00:24:21,305 --> 00:24:24,407 And He's preparing us for a time 469 00:24:24,407 --> 00:24:26,710 when blessing might come. 470 00:24:26,710 --> 00:24:31,045 And there's a network of men and ministries 471 00:24:31,045 --> 00:24:36,513 that can address sudden insurge 472 00:24:36,513 --> 00:24:45,068 of hungry, convicted people - old and young. 473 00:24:45,068 --> 00:24:46,594 Question: What book or person 474 00:24:46,594 --> 00:24:49,373 has made a great impact on your life 475 00:24:49,373 --> 00:24:51,439 and why? 476 00:24:51,439 --> 00:24:53,347 Geoff: That's an interesting question 477 00:24:53,347 --> 00:24:55,255 because you asked for one 478 00:24:55,255 --> 00:24:56,549 and that's good. 479 00:24:56,549 --> 00:24:58,827 And most men answering that question 480 00:24:58,827 --> 00:25:02,403 would say, well, let me give you three. 481 00:25:02,403 --> 00:25:04,057 And that's okay too, 482 00:25:04,057 --> 00:25:05,572 but I like the challenge 483 00:25:05,572 --> 00:25:11,088 of just giving you one name. 484 00:25:11,088 --> 00:25:16,448 I would probably say Iain Murray. 485 00:25:16,448 --> 00:25:18,102 Iain Murray's friendship 486 00:25:18,102 --> 00:25:20,273 and that I write to him most days. 487 00:25:20,273 --> 00:25:21,312 Now that I'm here, 488 00:25:21,312 --> 00:25:22,632 telling him everything. 489 00:25:22,632 --> 00:25:24,721 I'll tell him tonight in my letter 490 00:25:24,721 --> 00:25:27,330 that we had this interview. 491 00:25:27,330 --> 00:25:29,307 I might not tell him that I said 492 00:25:29,307 --> 00:25:33,171 he had the most influence. 493 00:25:33,171 --> 00:25:39,801 But Iain's been a counselor. 494 00:25:39,801 --> 00:25:44,377 He has insights that are so very helpful. 495 00:25:44,377 --> 00:25:47,076 I've read everything that he's written 496 00:25:47,076 --> 00:25:52,155 and find him so fresh always, 497 00:25:52,155 --> 00:25:53,956 and so disciplined. 498 00:25:53,956 --> 00:26:02,244 He's now 87 years of age, 499 00:26:02,244 --> 00:26:05,225 and yet he has the physique 500 00:26:05,225 --> 00:26:10,817 and the thinking 501 00:26:10,817 --> 00:26:13,432 and the joie de vivre 502 00:26:13,432 --> 00:26:18,153 of someone sixty years younger. 503 00:26:18,153 --> 00:26:21,457 Always the new books that he writes - 504 00:26:21,457 --> 00:26:25,457 invaluable. 505 00:26:25,457 --> 00:26:28,185 And Dr. Lloyd-Jones can bless God 506 00:26:28,185 --> 00:26:30,553 and the members of Lloyd-Jones' family 507 00:26:30,553 --> 00:26:33,786 can bless God 508 00:26:33,786 --> 00:26:38,517 as Dr. Johnson has Boswell to write his life, 509 00:26:38,517 --> 00:26:41,627 so Lloyd-Jones had Iain Murray 510 00:26:41,627 --> 00:26:43,404 of all people. 511 00:26:43,404 --> 00:26:45,039 To give those two volumes - 512 00:26:45,039 --> 00:26:47,715 that should never go out of print 513 00:26:47,715 --> 00:26:50,529 until the return of Christ. 514 00:26:50,529 --> 00:26:53,824 And they present Lloyd-Jones 515 00:26:53,824 --> 00:26:56,726 and his single volume on Lloyd-Jones, 516 00:26:56,726 --> 00:26:58,292 his afterthoughts, 517 00:26:58,292 --> 00:27:06,382 and his theological criticisms, 518 00:27:06,382 --> 00:27:10,123 so graciously and kindly stated. 519 00:27:10,123 --> 00:27:12,647 And they are very valuable too. 520 00:27:12,647 --> 00:27:17,482 So, you know, all of us 521 00:27:17,482 --> 00:27:23,300 are good in knowing the moral issues 522 00:27:23,300 --> 00:27:25,350 that face a Christian. 523 00:27:25,350 --> 00:27:29,545 And all of us are good in the doctrinal issues 524 00:27:29,545 --> 00:27:32,340 where error and heresy are, 525 00:27:32,340 --> 00:27:39,751 the dangers we have to avoid. 526 00:27:39,751 --> 00:27:43,769 You and I would be in 99.9% agreement 527 00:27:43,769 --> 00:27:46,473 on those things. 528 00:27:46,473 --> 00:27:50,981 And Iain is excellent in those things. 529 00:27:50,981 --> 00:27:52,726 But where he is very good 530 00:27:52,726 --> 00:27:56,382 is in his judgment of people; 531 00:27:56,382 --> 00:28:00,915 in his evaluation of men. 532 00:28:00,915 --> 00:28:07,345 And his generosity of spirit towards men. 533 00:28:07,351 --> 00:28:12,248 And in his willingness to train young men 534 00:28:12,248 --> 00:28:14,438 and his seeing of a talent 535 00:28:14,438 --> 00:28:18,947 and his appreciation. 536 00:28:18,947 --> 00:28:21,023 He's brought men there 537 00:28:21,023 --> 00:28:23,691 and he's appointed men. 538 00:28:23,691 --> 00:28:27,324 Reformed Baptist now. 539 00:28:27,324 --> 00:28:31,406 Jonathan Watson and John Rollinson - 540 00:28:31,406 --> 00:28:32,572 two Reformed Baptists. 541 00:28:32,572 --> 00:28:35,183 They were running the office manager 542 00:28:35,183 --> 00:28:37,499 and the general editor of Banner of Truth. 543 00:28:37,499 --> 00:28:39,640 The ones who choose the books and so on. 544 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,024 Reformed Baptists. 545 00:28:42,024 --> 00:28:45,411 And some are on the trusteeship. 546 00:28:45,411 --> 00:28:47,807 Trustees only meet once or twice a year 547 00:28:47,807 --> 00:28:49,402 for a day or two. 548 00:28:49,402 --> 00:28:53,368 But the practical work day by day. 549 00:28:53,368 --> 00:28:56,940 Iain doesn't absolutize Presbyterianism - 550 00:28:56,940 --> 00:28:59,090 he's a presbyterian, and he defends it, 551 00:28:59,090 --> 00:29:02,614 and believes it very much. 552 00:29:02,614 --> 00:29:08,959 But he's also generous in his spirit 553 00:29:08,959 --> 00:29:13,435 and discerning, 554 00:29:13,435 --> 00:29:17,473 so that we are so glad of him. 555 00:29:17,473 --> 00:29:27,603 Joel Beeke has much the same spirit. 556 00:29:27,603 --> 00:29:30,640 They've done me so much good. 557 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,183 People are always saying to me, 558 00:29:32,183 --> 00:29:34,011 how is it that you went as a Baptist 559 00:29:34,011 --> 00:29:35,218 to Westminster Seminary, 560 00:29:35,218 --> 00:29:38,586 and after three years, you came out a Baptist? 561 00:29:38,586 --> 00:29:44,083 I say, well, it was a gut instinct at first. 562 00:29:44,083 --> 00:29:53,575 It was that I was so thankful 563 00:29:53,575 --> 00:29:57,358 to the tradition that I'd grown up in, 564 00:29:57,358 --> 00:30:00,632 that didn't allow me to think I was a Christian 565 00:30:00,632 --> 00:30:02,085 until I was converted. 566 00:30:02,085 --> 00:30:06,112 They didn't confuse me by saying I was a covenant child. 567 00:30:06,112 --> 00:30:09,720 But it preached a summons 568 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,742 to repentance and baptism. 569 00:30:12,742 --> 00:30:14,324 When I asked Ian D. Campbell, 570 00:30:14,324 --> 00:30:16,478 I said to him - he was speaking 571 00:30:16,478 --> 00:30:18,270 and I was chairing the meetings. 572 00:30:18,270 --> 00:30:20,674 We had a question session afterwards. 573 00:30:20,674 --> 00:30:23,268 I said to Ian D. Campbell, 574 00:30:23,268 --> 00:30:24,953 "Now, you have three children 575 00:30:24,953 --> 00:30:26,654 and I have three children. 576 00:30:26,654 --> 00:30:30,340 And when your three children were born, 577 00:30:30,340 --> 00:30:32,202 days after they were born, 578 00:30:32,202 --> 00:30:34,378 you baptized them all. 579 00:30:34,378 --> 00:30:36,680 One by one you baptized them. 580 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,997 And I had three children, 581 00:30:38,997 --> 00:30:41,257 and I never baptized them, 582 00:30:41,257 --> 00:30:46,550 until they showed new covenant faith; 583 00:30:46,550 --> 00:30:48,688 until they confessed Jesus Christ 584 00:30:48,688 --> 00:30:50,406 as Lord and Savior, 585 00:30:50,406 --> 00:30:51,903 then I baptized them 586 00:30:51,903 --> 00:30:54,064 and allowed them to the Table 587 00:30:54,064 --> 00:31:00,114 at that time to covenant fellowship. 588 00:31:00,114 --> 00:31:03,289 What advantage did your children have 589 00:31:03,289 --> 00:31:05,181 from being baptized by you 590 00:31:05,181 --> 00:31:08,108 that my children didn't have?" 591 00:31:08,108 --> 00:31:09,536 And Ian Campbell's reply was, 592 00:31:09,536 --> 00:31:13,115 "None whatsoever." 593 00:31:13,115 --> 00:31:19,000 They had no spiritual advantage 594 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,702 in being baptized 595 00:31:20,702 --> 00:31:23,412 when my children were not baptized. 596 00:31:23,412 --> 00:31:31,224 And it was really that conviction 597 00:31:31,224 --> 00:31:37,177 that helped me to be wary 598 00:31:37,177 --> 00:31:40,409 of this enormous division 599 00:31:40,409 --> 00:31:43,652 that has caused our dear brothers - 600 00:31:43,652 --> 00:31:47,231 oh, the great, great men in the church 601 00:31:47,231 --> 00:31:49,016 who have been presbyterians 602 00:31:49,016 --> 00:31:50,197 and paedobaptists. 603 00:31:50,197 --> 00:31:51,502 They're wonderful men. 604 00:31:51,502 --> 00:31:53,497 The Puritans. 605 00:31:53,497 --> 00:31:56,264 Calvin and the Reformers. 606 00:31:56,264 --> 00:31:58,521 The martyrs. 607 00:31:58,521 --> 00:32:03,155 Whitefield. 608 00:32:03,155 --> 00:32:05,947 Men we've talked about this afternoon. 609 00:32:05,947 --> 00:32:07,946 Ichabod Spencer. 610 00:32:07,946 --> 00:32:11,747 The pastors. 611 00:32:11,747 --> 00:32:16,499 So many men today 612 00:32:16,499 --> 00:32:20,973 who lay down their lives for Christ. 613 00:32:20,973 --> 00:32:26,783 So, I wish that this division had not occurred. 614 00:32:26,783 --> 00:32:35,786 And I hope that we can write persuasively 615 00:32:35,786 --> 00:32:41,237 to show them their error. 616 00:32:41,237 --> 00:32:45,822 And that they too can see 617 00:32:45,822 --> 00:32:49,096 that the baptism of believers 618 00:32:49,096 --> 00:32:51,384 is what you get in the New Testament. 619 00:32:51,384 --> 00:32:53,396 And it's that hermeneutic 620 00:32:53,396 --> 00:32:54,794 that we take back with us 621 00:32:54,794 --> 00:32:56,714 into the Old Testament, 622 00:32:56,714 --> 00:33:00,284 and not impose upon the New Testament 623 00:33:00,284 --> 00:33:04,906 the old covenant legislation. 624 00:33:04,906 --> 00:33:07,374 Question: Was that your new book you're working on? 625 00:33:07,374 --> 00:33:11,219 Geoff: No, no, no... it's not. 626 00:33:11,219 --> 00:33:13,881 I'm not smart enough to write that. 627 00:33:13,881 --> 00:33:16,560 The men here who've written on it. 628 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,240 The number of books that Baptists 629 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,915 have written in the last 40 years... 630 00:33:20,915 --> 00:33:24,155 Very good. Let's pray together. 631 00:33:24,155 --> 00:33:29,197 Lord, this is so dangerously ego reinforcing 632 00:33:29,197 --> 00:33:32,166 to be treated as though 633 00:33:32,166 --> 00:33:36,584 I was the fount of knowledge and wisdom 634 00:33:36,584 --> 00:33:39,246 and even self-knowledge 635 00:33:39,246 --> 00:33:40,632 and self-analysis, 636 00:33:40,632 --> 00:33:43,603 and all these things are muddled 637 00:33:43,603 --> 00:33:48,829 and corrupted by my sin; 638 00:33:48,829 --> 00:33:54,618 come from lack of seeking Thy face 639 00:33:54,618 --> 00:33:56,943 and walking closely with Thee to heaven. 640 00:33:56,943 --> 00:33:59,032 Forgive, I beseech Thee, 641 00:33:59,032 --> 00:34:03,732 and if there are things that are going to hurt anyone, 642 00:34:03,732 --> 00:34:08,303 then don't let this go any further. 643 00:34:08,303 --> 00:34:11,369 But Lord, if it can be a help, 644 00:34:11,369 --> 00:34:14,240 then do bless it to the good of souls 645 00:34:14,240 --> 00:34:17,204 unto the church of Jesus Christ 646 00:34:17,204 --> 00:34:21,005 and the cause of the King of Kings.