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"I read an article that said

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that it is moral rebellion

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to deliberately not have children

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when you're married.

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The article said that to think

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that you could have marriage and sex

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but no kids is to defraud God's design.

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Are we doing anything wrong

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by not having children?

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And as a result, not dealing

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with the pain and challenges

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that can come from having kids?

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Is it the motive that must be questioned?

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I'm worried."

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So what do you think?

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Children? No children?

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If we marry,

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a man marries a woman,

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are they commanded

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that if physically possible,

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they should have children?

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Let me ask you a question.

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(Incomplete thought)

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Let's suppose this.

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Let's suppose you get married,

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and you have seven children,

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and then the doctor says to the wife,

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if you have any more children,

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you're probably not going to make it.

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It's probably going to kill you.

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Is it ok to stop having kids?

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On what basis?

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Because you've got to be careful here.

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Because whatever basis you say it's right

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to stop having them...

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(incomplete thought)

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Let's take the seven down to two kids,

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or down to one or down to none.

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So, is that basis for which we stopped

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having children at seven,

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does it also work for

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not having any at all?

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And if my wife's health

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and so maybe both of our health

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should be taken into question,

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is it that it might cause premature death

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to have children?

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If the chances are high enough of that?

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And when does the reason become invalid

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and who sets that standard?

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So Pedro, you're nodding up and down.

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Pedro: No, I wasn't.

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Tim: Oh, you were. So come on.

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Look, I'll just tell you,

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if I have seven children

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and the doctor tells me

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your wife probably isn't going to make it,

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somebody could come along and say

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well, brother, you've 
got to live by faith.

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Well, yes, I do.

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But living by faith -

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I have faith in that doctor

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and what that doctor told me

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seems to line up with 
the physical evidence

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that I'm observing in my wife,

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and the reality is I believe him

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because it's not like 
I'm looking at my wife

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and she looks like a specimen of health,

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and yet he's telling 
me she's deathly sick.

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I'm looking at my wife

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and I'm seeing what he's saying is true.

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My wife isn't what she used to be.

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My wife is declining physically.

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I recognize this.

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Would I stop having children after 7?

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I would.

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On what basis?

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See, we're not just a 
checklist kind of people.

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It's not just show me in the Bible

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where it says that.

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It's like love your wife

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as Christ loved the church.

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So, look, I'll let you men define

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what love to your wife looks like.

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In my estimation,

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that would be love for my wife.

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But ok, let's say we don't have any kids.

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And my wife says, oh honey,

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can we just not have kids?

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(incomplete thought)

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There's going to be so much pain

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and so many challenges

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that would come from having children.

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Can we just not have any?

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Ok, if you're going to say

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well, that's not loving your wife

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if you let her get away with that.

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On what basis would you say that?

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(Incomplete thought)

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If somebody was going to say

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that we're defrauding God's purpose,

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what do you think they're alluding to?

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Genesis.

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Be fruitful and multiply

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is what was told to -

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who was it told to?

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Adam, Noah, Jacob...

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at least those three I know

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that it was said to.

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Be fruitful and multiply.

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Ok, well let me ask you this.

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Do you take that as a commandment?

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If you say yes,

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then how is marriage optional?

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Do you see what I'm saying?

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Be fruitful and multiply.

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If that's a command,

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then that sounds like it's a command

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for every man to get married.

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And in fact, if you go a little ways after

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it talks about being fruitful and multiply

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it says some words concerning marriage

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that sound pretty much like the same kind

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of command.

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Let the man (do something).

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Anybody know what it says?

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It says that the man is supposed

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to leave the father and mother.

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And the thing is it doesn't say,

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if he gets married.

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It just says he's supposed to do it.

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So does that mean everybody 
should get married?

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Or does that mean that

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until Paul came along

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in 1 Corinthians,

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everybody was supposed to get married?

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See, you've got a problem with that

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because remember when the disciples said,

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Oh, if that's true, we'd be better off

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not being married.

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And what did Jesus say?

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You remember the situation?

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Rich, young ruler.

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Isn't that where it comes up?

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No, where did He talk about that?

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Where does Jesus talk about

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some are eunuchs?

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Is that right after the rich, young ruler?

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I think it is.

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But He says not everybody can accept

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this saying.

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Oh, no, it's Matthew 19.

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Excuse me.

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Matthew 19 after that whole discourse

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on divorce.

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Isn't that where it is?

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And that's when the disciples said whoa!

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You know, if this is the case,

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we're better off not marrying,

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and He says not everybody 
can receive that.

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Some are eunuchs.

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Even then.

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Even before Paul came along

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and wrote to the Corinthians,

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the reality is there were people

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who didn't get married.

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So here's the thing.

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If be fruitful and multiply

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is a command to multiply,

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you would think that it would have

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by necessity included

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the commandment to marry,

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which if you actually look at

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what's being said about marriage,

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it sounds like the same kind of command

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that be fruitful and multiply sounds like.

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And yet when you move away

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into the New Testament,

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you find that marriage

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certainly isn't required.

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In fact, Paul thought people

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may be even better off not doing it.

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Jesus was never married.

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Barnabas was never married.

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(from the room)

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Isn't it kind of

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reminiscent of 1 Timothy 4?

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About those forbidding marriage

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and requiring abstinence -

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like it's kind of the law.

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Tim: Well, somebody was laying down

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a law forbidding marriage,

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because obviously the Catholic church,

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demonic doctrines are going to come in

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and the Catholic church is a great example

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of that.

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But I guess the point that 
I'm trying to get at here is

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ok, we have things in Scripture said

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about being fruitful and multiplying.

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You've got something said,

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what is it Psalm 123 or 127 or something

202
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about the quiver being full.

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Here's the thing.

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Women who didn't have children,

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wanted children.

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Scripturally.

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Can you think of anybody in Scripture

208
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that purposely did not have children?

209
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I can think of one person.

210
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And God killed him.

211
00:10:06,706 --> 00:10:08,727
But it wasn't just because he looked

212
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at the commandment:

213
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Be fruitful and multiply,

214
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and said no!

215
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It was: Raise up seed for your brother,

216
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and he said no.

217
00:10:22,734 --> 00:10:24,518
One of the sons of Judah.

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00:10:24,518 --> 00:10:25,779
You remember him?

219
00:10:25,779 --> 00:10:31,027
You remember Perez

220
00:10:31,027 --> 00:10:33,846
is in the Messianic line.

221
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And his father was Judah;

222
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his mother was Tamar.

223
00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:38,695
You remember the whole 
incident with Tamar?

224
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She disguised herself as a prostitute.
Got impregnated by her father-in-law.

225
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Well, there were sons there.

226
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The first son, the second son...

227
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and the first son died,

228
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and so Tamar was given to the second son,

229
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and then that son Onan had to raise up

230
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seed to his dead brother,

231
00:10:55,716 --> 00:10:57,896
and he wasn't willing to do it

232
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and God killed him.

233
00:10:59,527 --> 00:11:00,849
But see, that's different.

234
00:11:00,849 --> 00:11:02,857
He wasn't just disobeying the commandment

235
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to have children,

236
00:11:03,794 --> 00:11:05,397
he was disobeying the commandment

237
00:11:05,397 --> 00:11:07,208
to raise up seed for his brother.

238
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So, it's a different situation.

239
00:11:10,512 --> 00:11:12,378
But other than that,

240
00:11:12,378 --> 00:11:13,986
I can't think of any place

241
00:11:13,986 --> 00:11:15,066
in the Old Testament

242
00:11:15,066 --> 00:11:18,775
where people willingly 
didn't want children.

243
00:11:18,775 --> 00:11:20,520
In fact, if anything, it was a curse

244
00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,210
if you didn't have children.

245
00:11:22,210 --> 00:11:24,269
It was looked down on.

246
00:11:24,269 --> 00:11:26,627
You remember how it was with Sarah

247
00:11:26,627 --> 00:11:27,407
in her old age.

248
00:11:27,407 --> 00:11:29,272
Or you remember how it was with Rachel

249
00:11:29,272 --> 00:11:31,312
when Leah's bearing all sorts of children,

250
00:11:31,312 --> 00:11:32,666
and Rachel can't have any.

251
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They all wanted children.

252
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Or you think about Elizabeth

253
00:11:35,419 --> 00:11:41,138
when you come into the New Testament.

254
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It just seemed like it was the norm.

255
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It was the blessing.

256
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The idea of somebody not wanting children

257
00:11:48,390 --> 00:11:54,879
was like just unheard of.

258
00:11:54,879 --> 00:11:56,438
So, here's the thing.

259
00:11:56,438 --> 00:11:59,028
Again, we don't just live by a checklist.

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What I would want to know -

261
00:12:01,110 --> 00:12:03,622
even in the New Testament,

262
00:12:03,622 --> 00:12:07,658
having children is assumed.

263
00:12:07,658 --> 00:12:09,380
Like, you get the qualifications

264
00:12:09,380 --> 00:12:10,595
for elders and deacons,

265
00:12:10,595 --> 00:12:13,063
it's just assumed that they have children.

266
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It doesn't mean they 
have to have children.

267
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But it's just assumed that they do.

268
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Or you know you get the older women

269
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teaching the younger women

270
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there in Titus,

271
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and it's just assumed that older women

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are supposed to teach the younger women

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to love their husbands and their children.

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The children are assumed.

275
00:12:36,711 --> 00:12:38,517
(in response to comment): Right,

276
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the widows being enrolled in 1 Timothy 5,

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it's assumed that they raised children.

278
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They were the wife of one husband.

279
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And they raised children

280
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and they showed hospitality

281
00:12:54,452 --> 00:12:57,575
and washed the feet of the saints.

282
00:12:57,575 --> 00:12:59,577
But it's just assumed.

283
00:12:59,577 --> 00:13:01,094
But here's the thing,

284
00:13:01,094 --> 00:13:02,525
Paul comes along and says,

285
00:13:02,525 --> 00:13:05,280
in this present distress,

286
00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,483
I would say that it's better

287
00:13:07,483 --> 00:13:08,679
if you didn't even marry,

288
00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:10,423
and obviously if you don't marry,

289
00:13:10,423 --> 00:13:12,337
you're not having children.

290
00:13:12,337 --> 00:13:18,120
(Incomplete thought)

291
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,567
What's the present distress?

292
00:13:20,567 --> 00:13:24,105
Let's say there was a severe persecution

293
00:13:24,105 --> 00:13:27,664
taking place right at that time.

294
00:13:27,664 --> 00:13:30,227
Paul says, look, in light of the distress,

295
00:13:30,227 --> 00:13:32,127
in light of the fact that Christians

296
00:13:32,127 --> 00:13:34,540
are being chased all over the place,

297
00:13:34,540 --> 00:13:36,120
and they're being hunted down...

298
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,551
I'll tell you, it's best not being married

299
00:13:40,551 --> 00:13:42,164
because if you have a family

300
00:13:42,164 --> 00:13:43,479
in that kind of situation,

301
00:13:43,479 --> 00:13:46,011
let's say you already got married

302
00:13:46,011 --> 00:13:48,835
and then you hear Paul say that.

303
00:13:48,835 --> 00:13:50,658
And it's like, well, we're married

304
00:13:50,658 --> 00:13:52,750
and so we're going to keep our vows here,

305
00:13:52,750 --> 00:13:54,579
but in light of this present distress,

306
00:13:54,579 --> 00:13:56,720
we do think it's best 
not to have children;

307
00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,080
not to bring them into this.

308
00:13:58,080 --> 00:13:59,960
I don't want my wife pregnant.

309
00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:03,168
Jesus even said something about

310
00:14:03,168 --> 00:14:07,817
you should hope that you're not with child

311
00:14:07,817 --> 00:14:09,111
or it's not on the Sabbath

312
00:14:09,111 --> 00:14:11,083
at certain times when the Romans

313
00:14:11,083 --> 00:14:12,109
are going to come in.

314
00:14:12,109 --> 00:14:13,998
Why? Because it's difficult to travel.

315
00:14:13,998 --> 00:14:16,234
If you're in a time of 
heavy duty persecution,

316
00:14:16,234 --> 00:14:17,766
Christians are on the run.

317
00:14:17,766 --> 00:14:19,216
You've already gotten married.

318
00:14:19,226 --> 00:14:20,739
You've got to keep those vows.

319
00:14:20,739 --> 00:14:22,017
But you come to recognize,

320
00:14:22,017 --> 00:14:23,270
you know, it might not be

321
00:14:23,270 --> 00:14:24,456
in our best interest.

322
00:14:24,456 --> 00:14:26,391
Here's one of the things to consider.

323
00:14:26,391 --> 00:14:29,284
Back in those days,

324
00:14:29,284 --> 00:14:31,537
maybe you can correct me on this,

325
00:14:31,537 --> 00:14:33,894
I don't know anything about birth control

326
00:14:33,894 --> 00:14:34,983
in those days,

327
00:14:34,983 --> 00:14:36,211
but I can tell you this,

328
00:14:36,211 --> 00:14:38,104
that if a man and a woman are married,

329
00:14:38,104 --> 00:14:40,642
one of the first things that Paul says
in 1 Corinthians 7 is that they

330
00:14:40,642 --> 00:14:42,868
need to not withhold their 
bodies from each other.

331
00:14:42,868 --> 00:14:44,218
Well, back in those 
days, I don't know

332
00:14:44,218 --> 00:14:45,944
what forms of birth control they had,

333
00:14:45,944 --> 00:14:47,256
but you're not supposed to

334
00:14:47,256 --> 00:14:48,969
withhold yourself from each other,

335
00:14:48,969 --> 00:14:51,921
and so, you know, the 
birth control thing -

336
00:14:51,921 --> 00:14:53,002
when did that come in?

337
00:14:53,002 --> 00:14:54,125
I don't know.

338
00:14:54,125 --> 00:14:54,994
I don't know.

339
00:14:54,994 --> 00:14:56,187
I've never researched it.

340
00:14:56,187 --> 00:14:58,498
I don't know the issues.

341
00:14:58,498 --> 00:15:01,678
Obviously, those things come into

342
00:15:01,678 --> 00:15:03,457
the equation now maybe in ways

343
00:15:03,457 --> 00:15:05,834
that they didn't 2,000 years ago.

344
00:15:05,834 --> 00:15:07,360
I can tell you this,

345
00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,418
you better not be killing your children.

346
00:15:11,418 --> 00:15:14,910
Any type of birth control that is abortive

347
00:15:14,910 --> 00:15:18,433
even as a third or fourth option

348
00:15:18,433 --> 00:15:21,296
of preventative is (incomplete thought).

349
00:15:21,296 --> 00:15:24,216
I will tell you that if it is ever

350
00:15:24,216 --> 00:15:26,380
found out in our church

351
00:15:26,380 --> 00:15:28,520
that somebody is using that form,

352
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,360
it is a disciplinary matter

353
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,677
undoubtedly, unquestionably.

354
00:15:34,677 --> 00:15:36,116
Any form of birth control

355
00:15:36,116 --> 00:15:42,059
that even remotely can be abortive.

356
00:15:42,059 --> 00:15:43,793
For the life of me,

357
00:15:43,793 --> 00:15:47,284
I can't figure out why in the world

358
00:15:47,284 --> 00:15:50,290
things like this even come up for debate

359
00:15:50,290 --> 00:15:52,384
among genuine Christians.

360
00:15:52,384 --> 00:15:54,492
Maybe they don't.

361
00:15:54,492 --> 00:15:56,446
Maybe genuine Christians would

362
00:15:56,446 --> 00:16:00,162
abominate the idea of 
murdering their children.

363
00:16:00,162 --> 00:16:03,001
Maybe there's ignorance too.

364
00:16:03,001 --> 00:16:04,780
But I think birth control

365
00:16:04,780 --> 00:16:09,605
ends up being part of the equation.

366
00:16:09,605 --> 00:16:11,950
But here's the thing,

367
00:16:11,950 --> 00:16:14,824
if a Christian couple said

368
00:16:14,824 --> 00:16:18,116
that they didn't want to have children,

369
00:16:18,116 --> 00:16:19,964
if they told me it was because of

370
00:16:19,964 --> 00:16:21,484
the present distress,

371
00:16:21,484 --> 00:16:24,294
and they're on the phone with me,

372
00:16:24,294 --> 00:16:26,355
and they happen to be over in North Korea

373
00:16:26,355 --> 00:16:27,434
and they're on the run

374
00:16:27,434 --> 00:16:29,171
and they're living in the marshes -

375
00:16:29,171 --> 00:16:31,176
ok, I understand that.

376
00:16:31,176 --> 00:16:33,654
I'm not going to fault that.

377
00:16:33,654 --> 00:16:38,113
If they say, you know what?

378
00:16:38,113 --> 00:16:42,109
God just pressed upon us to adopt,

379
00:16:42,109 --> 00:16:44,227
and we've adopted 14 children,

380
00:16:44,227 --> 00:16:47,519
and we've always believed

381
00:16:47,519 --> 00:16:49,503
that's what God wanted us to do.

382
00:16:49,503 --> 00:16:51,734
There's so many children without parents.

383
00:16:51,734 --> 00:16:53,008
You know what?

384
00:16:53,008 --> 00:16:55,275
I would not question that.

385
00:16:55,275 --> 00:16:58,205
But if somebody's like,

386
00:16:58,205 --> 00:17:02,467
just give me the easy life.

387
00:17:02,467 --> 00:17:04,632
Yeah, you know what,

388
00:17:04,632 --> 00:17:08,852
you probably need children.

389
00:17:08,852 --> 00:17:13,315
I mean, I would probably pastorally

390
00:17:13,315 --> 00:17:15,825
be encouraging them to have them.

391
00:17:15,825 --> 00:17:18,512
And we've run into that situation.

392
00:17:18,512 --> 00:17:19,982
James may remember a situation

393
00:17:19,982 --> 00:17:21,778
we ran into several years back

394
00:17:21,778 --> 00:17:23,849
when somebody that most of you

395
00:17:23,849 --> 00:17:25,285
probably know -

396
00:17:25,285 --> 00:17:29,970
he and his wife weren't having children,

397
00:17:29,970 --> 00:17:33,202
and just looking at the normalcy of it

398
00:17:33,202 --> 00:17:34,312
in Scripture,

399
00:17:34,312 --> 00:17:42,530
it's like why would you not?

400
00:17:42,530 --> 00:17:45,886
But, you know, if somebody's

401
00:17:45,886 --> 00:17:49,578
in a ministerial position of some sort -

402
00:17:49,578 --> 00:17:51,945
they're a pastor or deacon,

403
00:17:51,945 --> 00:17:54,481
I think it's good for men 
in those positions

404
00:17:54,481 --> 00:17:56,269
to be married and have wives -

405
00:17:56,269 --> 00:17:57,941
not that it's absolutely mandatory,

406
00:17:57,941 --> 00:17:59,395
but I think it's good.

407
00:17:59,395 --> 00:18:02,750
It tends to set a good example.

408
00:18:02,750 --> 00:18:05,938
And look, it's not like 
you have to have kids

409
00:18:05,938 --> 00:18:07,476
to be able to counsel on kids.

410
00:18:07,476 --> 00:18:09,203
It's not like you have to be married

411
00:18:09,203 --> 00:18:10,377
to counsel on marriage.

412
00:18:10,377 --> 00:18:12,309
Paul wasn't married and he gave counsel

413
00:18:12,309 --> 00:18:14,474
on marriage and on kids.

414
00:18:14,474 --> 00:18:17,011
So, you know, you don't want to say

415
00:18:17,011 --> 00:18:18,993
you can't tell me anything about that.

416
00:18:18,993 --> 00:18:20,184
Look, truth is truth,

417
00:18:20,184 --> 00:18:22,078
no matter who's telling you.

418
00:18:22,078 --> 00:18:25,354
But it is helpful to have experiences.

419
00:18:25,354 --> 00:18:29,412
There's no question about that.

420
00:18:29,412 --> 00:18:32,158
But you know, if I'm getting the feeling

421
00:18:32,158 --> 00:18:33,986
that somebody's making that decision

422
00:18:33,986 --> 00:18:38,538
because they just want ease,

423
00:18:38,538 --> 00:18:44,716
oh brethren, through much tribulation...

424
00:18:44,716 --> 00:18:46,597
So if you opt out of children

425
00:18:46,597 --> 00:18:50,811
because you're looking 
for the easier path,

426
00:18:50,811 --> 00:18:53,065
and you're truly a child of God,

427
00:18:53,065 --> 00:18:56,125
don't believe you're on the easy road.

428
00:18:56,125 --> 00:18:57,724
The Lord will see to it that

429
00:18:57,724 --> 00:18:59,156
that's not going to happen.

430
00:18:59,156 --> 00:19:00,939
Pastorally, if I was sensing

431
00:19:00,939 --> 00:19:02,858
that somebody was not having children

432
00:19:02,858 --> 00:19:06,401
because of some kind of worldliness;

433
00:19:06,401 --> 00:19:07,876
some kind of selfishness;

434
00:19:07,876 --> 00:19:10,663
I would probably want to

435
00:19:10,663 --> 00:19:15,728
put my finger on that.

436
00:19:15,728 --> 00:19:16,950
Any other thoughts?

437
00:19:16,950 --> 00:19:17,761
(from the room)

438
00:19:17,761 --> 00:19:19,767
I don't remember if you 
hit on this or not

439
00:19:19,767 --> 00:19:20,952
but as far as the verse:

440
00:19:20,952 --> 00:19:22,517
Be fruitful and multiply.

441
00:19:22,517 --> 00:19:24,157
Is there a way we should view that

442
00:19:24,157 --> 00:19:26,028
in the New Testament.

443
00:19:26,028 --> 00:19:27,674
I mean Israel is a physical nation

444
00:19:27,674 --> 00:19:31,388
taking this lineage to have Christ,

445
00:19:31,388 --> 00:19:33,413
a physical people.

446
00:19:33,413 --> 00:19:35,116
We're now looking to not just

447
00:19:35,116 --> 00:19:36,664
make physical children

448
00:19:36,664 --> 00:19:38,257
but spiritual children.

449
00:19:38,257 --> 00:19:39,769
Is there any way we could take

450
00:19:39,769 --> 00:19:42,550
that text and view it

451
00:19:42,550 --> 00:19:44,718
in the New Testament through that lens?

452
00:19:44,718 --> 00:19:46,768
Tim: Well, we could just spiritualize it,

453
00:19:46,768 --> 00:19:48,385
much like marriage has all these

454
00:19:48,385 --> 00:19:49,442
spiritual realities.

455
00:19:49,442 --> 00:19:52,923
We could spiritualize it.

456
00:19:52,923 --> 00:19:54,052
(from the room)

457
00:19:54,052 --> 00:19:55,986
For people who do spiritualize it,

458
00:19:55,986 --> 00:19:57,568
are you comfortable with that?

459
00:19:57,568 --> 00:19:59,083
Or do you feel like they don't

460
00:19:59,083 --> 00:20:03,026
actually have biblical grounds to do that?

461
00:20:03,026 --> 00:20:05,243
Tim: Well, I think Jesus basically

462
00:20:05,243 --> 00:20:07,708
was saying be fruitful and multiply

463
00:20:07,708 --> 00:20:10,324
in His Great Commission.

464
00:20:10,324 --> 00:20:12,388
But whether it's taken from that

465
00:20:12,388 --> 00:20:14,130
and if somebody took it and said,

466
00:20:14,130 --> 00:20:16,515
well, that's all that means to me

467
00:20:16,515 --> 00:20:18,460
today as a New Testament believer.

468
00:20:18,460 --> 00:20:24,224
Well, really, I would just say this:

469
00:20:24,224 --> 00:20:26,943
The fact that Paul tells people

470
00:20:26,943 --> 00:20:29,695
not to marry is indirectly a call

471
00:20:29,695 --> 00:20:32,016
to not bear children too.

472
00:20:32,016 --> 00:20:37,809
And so, I guess that's 
the tension I feel there.

473
00:20:37,809 --> 00:20:44,846
(Incomplete thought)

474
00:20:44,846 --> 00:20:46,343
Just think with me here.

475
00:20:46,343 --> 00:20:50,784
He's clearly indicating that

476
00:20:50,784 --> 00:20:53,978
for the sake of serving the Lord,

477
00:20:53,978 --> 00:20:56,720
it would be best not to be married.

478
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,854
You can be more fully 
devoted to the Lord then.

479
00:20:59,854 --> 00:21:02,985
I would say if a married couple

480
00:21:02,985 --> 00:21:05,253
didn't have children,

481
00:21:05,253 --> 00:21:07,009
and seriously they were concerned

482
00:21:07,009 --> 00:21:08,551
about serving the Lord,

483
00:21:08,551 --> 00:21:10,267
and they weren't having the children

484
00:21:10,267 --> 00:21:14,673
in order to serve the Lord 
in a certain capacity,

485
00:21:14,673 --> 00:21:19,199
is there a place to use 
Paul's same argumentation

486
00:21:19,199 --> 00:21:21,144
to make that case?

487
00:21:21,144 --> 00:21:22,554
It's an off-handed way,

488
00:21:22,554 --> 00:21:24,987
and I recognize he 
directly did not say that.

489
00:21:24,987 --> 00:21:26,766
And then I recognize you also have

490
00:21:26,766 --> 00:21:27,965
the other aspect

491
00:21:27,965 --> 00:21:33,040
that you have a man and a woman

492
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,883
and the two are supposed to be

493
00:21:35,883 --> 00:21:39,447
giving their bodies to one another.

494
00:21:39,447 --> 00:21:41,879
Typically, the natural result 
of that is children.

495
00:21:41,879 --> 00:21:47,241
And obviously some unnatural action

496
00:21:47,241 --> 00:21:49,307
has to be taken,

497
00:21:49,307 --> 00:21:55,247
to prevent that from happening.

498
00:21:55,247 --> 00:21:57,448
It's the kind of thing that I think

499
00:21:57,448 --> 00:22:01,001
we all have to wrestle 
with these questions

500
00:22:01,001 --> 00:22:03,477
and we have to come to a place

501
00:22:03,477 --> 00:22:05,646
(incomplete thought)

502
00:22:05,646 --> 00:22:07,142
It's kind of like Romans 14

503
00:22:07,142 --> 00:22:09,493
where Paul is saying that

504
00:22:09,493 --> 00:22:14,436
let everyone be persuaded in his own mind.

505
00:22:14,436 --> 00:22:16,852
We want people that are convinced.

506
00:22:16,852 --> 00:22:19,089
And so you want to wrestle through.

507
00:22:19,089 --> 00:22:22,967
And the thing we have to be honest about,

508
00:22:22,967 --> 00:22:24,325
is really seriously looking

509
00:22:24,325 --> 00:22:25,762
at what Scripture says

510
00:22:25,762 --> 00:22:27,240
and what God's will is -

511
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:28,524
not just what our will is.

512
00:22:28,524 --> 00:22:30,025
Not just going in with our will

513
00:22:30,025 --> 00:22:31,708
already made up

514
00:22:31,708 --> 00:22:35,550
or our lifestyle already determined

515
00:22:35,550 --> 00:22:36,691
in our own minds.

516
00:22:36,691 --> 00:22:38,488
And then we're just looking

517
00:22:38,488 --> 00:22:48,669
for the way to validate our lifestyle.

518
00:22:48,669 --> 00:22:50,849
This doesn't just end.

519
00:22:50,849 --> 00:22:53,840
It's be fruitful and multiply.

520
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,108
And so, the question doesn't only come up

521
00:22:56,108 --> 00:22:57,964
with whether you have any children;

522
00:22:57,964 --> 00:23:00,686
it comes up again after you've had one,

523
00:23:00,686 --> 00:23:05,854
or two, or three, or four...

524
00:23:05,854 --> 00:23:08,851
Every family in the church 
is wrestling with this.

525
00:23:08,851 --> 00:23:11,132
And look, this question comes up

526
00:23:11,132 --> 00:23:12,625
and all you have to do is talk

527
00:23:12,625 --> 00:23:13,839
to the men and the women,

528
00:23:13,839 --> 00:23:15,523
and what you're getting is

529
00:23:15,523 --> 00:23:18,538
some families, they're going 
on to six and seven;

530
00:23:18,538 --> 00:23:22,834
And some you see four, five, six...

531
00:23:22,834 --> 00:23:25,496
they stop.

532
00:23:25,496 --> 00:23:27,600
And there's no more.

533
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:28,975
Why?

534
00:23:28,975 --> 00:23:30,989
Something happened?

535
00:23:30,989 --> 00:23:35,430
And not only has something happened,

536
00:23:35,430 --> 00:23:38,088
decisions are being made.

537
00:23:38,088 --> 00:23:42,547
And people are wrestling with God's Word,

538
00:23:42,547 --> 00:23:45,650
and they're wrestling with the truth here.

539
00:23:45,650 --> 00:23:46,964
I would say in our church

540
00:23:46,964 --> 00:23:48,592
those who believe that you should

541
00:23:48,592 --> 00:23:50,801
keep having children until God stops

542
00:23:50,801 --> 00:23:52,283
giving them to you

543
00:23:52,283 --> 00:23:56,867
are the exception.

544
00:23:56,867 --> 00:23:59,954
I personally only know of like 2 or 3

545
00:23:59,954 --> 00:24:02,892
that have taken that position.

546
00:24:02,892 --> 00:24:05,392
It's just something we all 
have to wrestle with.

547
00:24:05,392 --> 00:24:06,424
I can tell you this,

548
00:24:06,424 --> 00:24:07,856
when I got to the point where

549
00:24:07,856 --> 00:24:08,911
I wrestled with it,

550
00:24:08,911 --> 00:24:11,227
it's like the Lord just gave me

551
00:24:11,227 --> 00:24:14,320
a sense of peace.

552
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,129
And I know that's very subjective,

553
00:24:16,129 --> 00:24:18,596
but look, I wanted ten children

554
00:24:18,596 --> 00:24:20,961
from the very beginning.

555
00:24:20,961 --> 00:24:23,726
My wife can tell you that.

556
00:24:23,726 --> 00:24:27,122
And when the time came

557
00:24:27,122 --> 00:24:30,769
and I sought the Lord in the matter,

558
00:24:30,769 --> 00:24:33,386
it wasn't like there was even a wrestling.

559
00:24:33,386 --> 00:24:35,127
As much as I wanted ten children,

560
00:24:35,127 --> 00:24:38,321
it was like the Lord just affirmed it

561
00:24:38,321 --> 00:24:43,705
that it was right to stop there.

562
00:24:43,705 --> 00:24:45,650
And I know that's very subjective.

563
00:24:45,650 --> 00:24:47,875
But a lot of this is going to be.

564
00:24:47,875 --> 00:24:48,945
We have to wrestle

565
00:24:48,945 --> 00:24:51,349
through these things,

566
00:24:51,349 --> 00:24:53,930
and we have to take it before the Lord.

567
00:24:53,930 --> 00:24:55,052
I'll tell you this.

568
00:24:55,052 --> 00:24:56,772
If you go before the Lord,

569
00:24:56,772 --> 00:25:01,798
and your will is surrendered,

570
00:25:01,798 --> 00:25:04,697
you really want His will.

571
00:25:04,697 --> 00:25:06,701
You really do.

572
00:25:06,701 --> 00:25:09,703
That doesn't mean you 
don't have preferences.

573
00:25:09,703 --> 00:25:11,374
But you're really surrendered.

574
00:25:11,374 --> 00:25:12,803
The Lord's going to guide you.

575
00:25:12,803 --> 00:25:14,481
The Lord will take you in the path

576
00:25:14,481 --> 00:25:17,088
that you need to go.

577
00:25:17,088 --> 00:25:18,798
The Lord will make things obvious.

578
00:25:18,798 --> 00:25:20,408
He'll bring the right counselors.

579
00:25:20,408 --> 00:25:22,020
He'll bring the right Scripture

580
00:25:22,020 --> 00:25:24,363
to bear on your conscience.

581
00:25:24,363 --> 00:25:26,672
You just cry out to Him.

582
00:25:26,672 --> 00:25:29,562
You keep your conscience guided

583
00:25:29,562 --> 00:25:32,430
and immersed in Scripture all the time.

584
00:25:32,430 --> 00:25:36,554
Scripture, Scripture, Scripture...

585
00:25:36,554 --> 00:25:38,371
the last thing you need to be doing

586
00:25:38,371 --> 00:25:41,142
is talking to your worldly relatives

587
00:25:41,142 --> 00:25:43,200
or your worldly co-workers.

588
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,774
That's not what guides conscience.

589
00:25:46,774 --> 00:25:48,056
It's Scripture.

590
00:25:48,056 --> 00:25:49,419
It's God's Word

591
00:25:49,419 --> 00:25:51,509
just washing your mind,

592
00:25:51,509 --> 00:25:53,993
washing, washing, washing.

593
00:25:53,993 --> 00:25:56,470
Being renewed, being renewed.

594
00:25:56,470 --> 00:26:00,251
Being guided by a sense of God's will

595
00:26:00,251 --> 00:26:03,071
and God's purpose.

596
00:26:03,071 --> 00:26:05,722
And you know, I'm studying Scripture

597
00:26:05,722 --> 00:26:07,073
all the time.

598
00:26:07,073 --> 00:26:10,818
I can tell you from the 
time that we had Joy until now,

599
00:26:10,818 --> 00:26:14,000
I would have liked to 
have had more children.

600
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:15,568
But I've never second guessed

601
00:26:15,568 --> 00:26:18,198
whether we did the right thing or not.

602
00:26:18,198 --> 00:26:20,016
After all the studying of Scripture,

603
00:26:20,016 --> 00:26:23,243
it's not like, oh, you know this cloud

604
00:26:23,243 --> 00:26:25,398
that we did the wrong thing.

605
00:26:25,398 --> 00:26:26,411
We sought the Lord.

606
00:26:26,411 --> 00:26:28,271
I believe the Lord guided us.

607
00:26:28,271 --> 00:26:29,147
(from the room)

608
00:26:29,147 --> 00:26:32,459
You don't need to give details, 
but weren't there objective reasons?

609
00:26:32,459 --> 00:26:34,029
Not just subjective?

610
00:26:34,029 --> 00:26:35,568
Tim: Yes, there were.

611
00:26:35,568 --> 00:26:37,613
I mean I went through all the objective -

612
00:26:37,613 --> 00:26:40,970
the objective reasons.

613
00:26:40,970 --> 00:26:47,871
Basically, we had a newborn,

614
00:26:47,871 --> 00:26:49,991
a one year old, a three year old,

615
00:26:49,991 --> 00:26:52,426
and a five year old.

616
00:26:52,426 --> 00:26:54,768
And you know, a lot of times

617
00:26:54,768 --> 00:26:56,783
when families were like that,

618
00:26:56,783 --> 00:26:58,781
they had nannies and stuff.

619
00:26:58,781 --> 00:26:59,952
We didn't have that.

620
00:26:59,952 --> 00:27:01,829
We didn't have anybody.

621
00:27:01,829 --> 00:27:04,861
(Incomplete thought)

622
00:27:04,861 --> 00:27:10,367
And I was working full 
time as an engineer,

623
00:27:10,367 --> 00:27:13,326
trying to be involved in the ministry,

624
00:27:13,326 --> 00:27:15,341
we lived out in the country

625
00:27:15,341 --> 00:27:17,193
and we were in the woods,

626
00:27:17,193 --> 00:27:19,653
so I was clearing trees

627
00:27:19,653 --> 00:27:21,866
and putting water lines in.

628
00:27:21,866 --> 00:27:23,555
I'd come home from work

629
00:27:23,555 --> 00:27:25,223
and go right out.

630
00:27:25,223 --> 00:27:26,055
A lot of times,

631
00:27:26,055 --> 00:27:27,772
I wouldn't change my work clothes.

632
00:27:27,772 --> 00:27:28,984
I'd just put my boots on

633
00:27:28,984 --> 00:27:30,502
and straight out to try to get

634
00:27:30,502 --> 00:27:32,014
every bit of daylight I could

635
00:27:32,014 --> 00:27:32,974
out of the day.

636
00:27:32,974 --> 00:27:36,581
And Ruby's got, I think,

637
00:27:36,581 --> 00:27:38,878
two in diapers,

638
00:27:38,878 --> 00:27:41,745
plus a three year old and a five year old.

639
00:27:41,745 --> 00:27:43,855
And now, with the five year old,

640
00:27:43,855 --> 00:27:46,159
homeschooling starts.

641
00:27:46,159 --> 00:27:51,015
And she's just wiped out.

642
00:27:51,015 --> 00:27:53,360
She said I have to start 
home schooling now

643
00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:59,022
and can we please stop?

644
00:27:59,022 --> 00:28:01,031
You know, that coming at a guy

645
00:28:01,031 --> 00:28:02,808
that over and over and over,

646
00:28:02,808 --> 00:28:04,386
if she told you how many times

647
00:28:04,386 --> 00:28:05,922
I said we're having ten kids,

648
00:28:05,922 --> 00:28:07,220
I probably said it

649
00:28:07,220 --> 00:28:11,869
ten times ten times ten times.

650
00:28:11,869 --> 00:28:13,549
I'd tell it to everybody.

651
00:28:13,549 --> 00:28:15,292
We're having ten kids.

652
00:28:15,292 --> 00:28:16,499
And so when she came in

653
00:28:16,499 --> 00:28:17,247
it was like,

654
00:28:17,247 --> 00:28:18,641
I don't know if she thought

655
00:28:18,641 --> 00:28:20,300
she was going to get hesitation,

656
00:28:20,300 --> 00:28:23,917
but it was just like the Lord confirmed it

657
00:28:23,917 --> 00:28:36,371
that it was out of love for my wife.

658
00:28:36,371 --> 00:28:39,283
What time do we have?

659
00:28:39,283 --> 00:28:43,321
Brethren, I'll tell you this.

660
00:28:43,321 --> 00:28:44,887
The families in the church

661
00:28:44,887 --> 00:28:46,548
that are convinced that they need

662
00:28:46,548 --> 00:28:48,061
to keep having children,

663
00:28:48,061 --> 00:28:51,563
I don't try to unconvince them.

664
00:28:51,563 --> 00:28:53,839
Those who take: be fruitful and multiply

665
00:28:53,839 --> 00:28:56,700
and they feel like that is a commandment

666
00:28:56,700 --> 00:29:00,226
of God to them to keep having children,

667
00:29:00,226 --> 00:29:02,309
amen.

668
00:29:02,309 --> 00:29:04,546
We all have to wrestle 
though these things,

669
00:29:04,546 --> 00:29:06,031
and what I want is a church

670
00:29:06,031 --> 00:29:07,848
full of people with conviction.

671
00:29:07,848 --> 00:29:09,394
What I want is people who know

672
00:29:09,394 --> 00:29:11,679
why they're doing what they do.

673
00:29:11,679 --> 00:29:12,610
That's Romans 14.

674
00:29:12,610 --> 00:29:14,102
And you know what's interesting

675
00:29:14,102 --> 00:29:15,340
about Romans 14?

676
00:29:15,340 --> 00:29:17,702
Is some people keep the day,
some people don't keep the day.

677
00:29:17,702 --> 00:29:19,947
Some people eat the meat,
some people don't eat the meat.

678
00:29:19,947 --> 00:29:21,793
Not everybody's doing the same thing.

679
00:29:21,793 --> 00:29:24,291
But Paul said I want you all convinced.

680
00:29:24,291 --> 00:29:25,401
In other words,

681
00:29:25,401 --> 00:29:27,775
I want you all to be people of conviction.

682
00:29:27,775 --> 00:29:29,210
You say, well, is that safe?

683
00:29:29,210 --> 00:29:31,316
Having a church full of 
people with conviction

684
00:29:31,316 --> 00:29:33,487
when sometimes when their 
convictions aren't right?

685
00:29:33,487 --> 00:29:36,618
Or when their convictions don't line up?

686
00:29:36,618 --> 00:29:38,432
Well yeah, that's healthy.

687
00:29:38,432 --> 00:29:40,099
That doesn't mean you should have

688
00:29:40,099 --> 00:29:41,334
a conviction about the Trinity

689
00:29:41,334 --> 00:29:43,015
that's different from all the rest of us.

690
00:29:43,015 --> 00:29:45,021
It doesn't mean you 
have different thoughts

691
00:29:45,021 --> 00:29:46,656
on justification by faith.

692
00:29:46,656 --> 00:29:48,277
We're not talking about that.

693
00:29:48,277 --> 00:29:50,606
We're talking about number of children;

694
00:29:50,606 --> 00:29:51,968
we're talking about meat;

695
00:29:51,968 --> 00:29:53,678
we're talking about observing days,

696
00:29:53,678 --> 00:29:54,879
not observing a day.

697
00:29:54,879 --> 00:29:56,725
We're talking about things like that.

698
00:29:56,725 --> 00:29:58,155
And we should have a people

699
00:29:58,155 --> 00:29:59,116
full of conviction.

700
00:29:59,116 --> 00:30:01,262
Because what is a 
people full of conviction?

701
00:30:01,262 --> 00:30:04,592
It means they're 
exercising their discernment.

702
00:30:04,592 --> 00:30:07,416
They're finding out the good and the bad.

703
00:30:07,416 --> 00:30:08,966
What that tells you is

704
00:30:08,966 --> 00:30:12,110
you're getting mature people.

705
00:30:12,110 --> 00:30:14,272
And it all the more reflects the maturity

706
00:30:14,272 --> 00:30:16,755
when I strongly believe that I can have

707
00:30:16,755 --> 00:30:17,671
four children,

708
00:30:17,671 --> 00:30:18,923
and you strongly believe

709
00:30:18,923 --> 00:30:20,655
that you should keep having children

710
00:30:20,655 --> 00:30:21,815
till your wife is dead,

711
00:30:21,815 --> 00:30:23,454
and we can both look at each other

712
00:30:23,454 --> 00:30:25,067
and hug each other

713
00:30:25,067 --> 00:30:30,061
and say, "Hi, brother."

714
00:30:30,061 --> 00:30:31,985
And I'm not saying that there's any men

715
00:30:31,985 --> 00:30:39,241
in the church that would go that far.

716
00:30:39,241 --> 00:30:42,236
Ok.

717
00:30:42,236 --> 00:30:45,968
Father, we pray make us a people

718
00:30:45,968 --> 00:30:47,143
of the Word.

719
00:30:47,143 --> 00:30:48,760
Make us people of the Book.

720
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,674
People that it could be said of us,

721
00:30:51,674 --> 00:30:54,673
Lord, I think of Bunyan,

722
00:30:54,673 --> 00:30:56,140
it was said of him

723
00:30:56,140 --> 00:30:57,693
that you could cut him anywhere

724
00:30:57,693 --> 00:31:00,199
and he would bleed Scripture.

725
00:31:00,199 --> 00:31:01,853
And Lord, I know when people have

726
00:31:01,853 --> 00:31:03,120
moved here to our church

727
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:04,805
they oftentimes are amazed

728
00:31:04,805 --> 00:31:06,573
at how even the youngest believers

729
00:31:06,573 --> 00:31:08,531
among us know so much Scripture.

730
00:31:08,531 --> 00:31:10,171
And Lord, I pray that would just

731
00:31:10,171 --> 00:31:11,501
continue all the more.

732
00:31:11,501 --> 00:31:13,226
Lord, not to puff us up.

733
00:31:13,226 --> 00:31:15,430
But may we know the Scriptures truly

734
00:31:15,430 --> 00:31:17,152
in a way that humbles us;

735
00:31:17,152 --> 00:31:18,916
in a way that we see Your glory;

736
00:31:18,916 --> 00:31:23,154
in a way that our God is big, Lord;

737
00:31:23,154 --> 00:31:24,847
in a way that our lives would be

738
00:31:24,847 --> 00:31:31,957
guided by that lamp unto our feet.

739
00:31:31,957 --> 00:31:33,991
Please, guide us by Your Word, Lord.

740
00:31:33,991 --> 00:31:35,420
We pray in Christ's name,

741
00:31:35,420 --> 00:31:37,076
Amen.