1 00:00:00,555 --> 00:00:02,663 James: After Bob died and you were 2 00:00:02,663 --> 00:00:05,220 left just the only pastor in the church, 3 00:00:05,220 --> 00:00:07,664 what has been an encouragement to you? 4 00:00:07,664 --> 00:00:11,472 It's not like these last years have been easy. 5 00:00:11,472 --> 00:00:13,327 There have been difficulties. 6 00:00:13,327 --> 00:00:15,322 How has the Lord kept you going 7 00:00:15,322 --> 00:00:18,796 in the midst of those trials? 8 00:00:18,796 --> 00:00:21,225 Clint: They were difficult years 9 00:00:21,225 --> 00:00:25,706 immediately following Bob's death. 10 00:00:25,706 --> 00:00:28,990 We had plenty of controversy. 11 00:00:28,990 --> 00:00:34,414 And I was now facing it alone. 12 00:00:34,414 --> 00:00:38,595 God surrounded me with good men. 13 00:00:38,595 --> 00:00:40,876 There's something very uplifting 14 00:00:40,876 --> 00:00:43,454 and courage building to realize 15 00:00:43,454 --> 00:00:45,563 that you're not in the struggle alone. 16 00:00:45,563 --> 00:00:48,826 Even though my best friend 17 00:00:48,826 --> 00:00:50,669 and my co-pastor was gone. 18 00:00:50,669 --> 00:00:52,974 And in that sense, I was a sole pastor 19 00:00:52,974 --> 00:00:55,930 at this church, this location. 20 00:00:55,930 --> 00:00:58,659 Still, there were these other men 21 00:00:58,659 --> 00:01:03,096 that I knew in Kirksville, in Denton, 22 00:01:03,096 --> 00:01:05,999 in Texas - all around. 23 00:01:05,999 --> 00:01:08,646 And that was very courage building and uplifting. 24 00:01:08,646 --> 00:01:12,670 That helped me. 25 00:01:12,670 --> 00:01:15,818 As far as God was concerned, 26 00:01:15,818 --> 00:01:19,028 what helped me more than anything else - 27 00:01:19,028 --> 00:01:21,924 I kept being brought full circle back 28 00:01:21,924 --> 00:01:22,993 to the love of God - 29 00:01:22,993 --> 00:01:25,770 the unchanging love of God. 30 00:01:25,770 --> 00:01:27,192 There were times at night 31 00:01:27,192 --> 00:01:29,158 when I would lie there sleepless. 32 00:01:29,158 --> 00:01:30,640 That's the way that I am. 33 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,288 I imagine other guys to be stronger than that 34 00:01:33,288 --> 00:01:36,136 and able to put those things 35 00:01:36,136 --> 00:01:37,953 out of their minds and sleep, 36 00:01:37,953 --> 00:01:39,613 but I lose sleep. 37 00:01:39,613 --> 00:01:42,357 Sleepless nights, the Apostle Paul said 38 00:01:42,357 --> 00:01:45,071 in 2 Corinthians 11. 39 00:01:45,071 --> 00:01:46,530 But there were times at night 40 00:01:46,530 --> 00:01:48,654 when I would be laying there wide awake, 41 00:01:48,654 --> 00:01:51,967 my heart pounding with a fresh problem 42 00:01:51,967 --> 00:01:54,166 that had come up and all I could say 43 00:01:54,166 --> 00:01:56,838 under my breath over and over again 44 00:01:56,838 --> 00:02:01,080 was, "Thank You, Lord, for loving me." 45 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:06,843 And that was from God's end 46 00:02:06,843 --> 00:02:12,123 a life saver for me. 47 00:02:12,123 --> 00:02:16,494 In the way of practical things, 48 00:02:16,494 --> 00:02:19,322 having someone to talk to 49 00:02:19,322 --> 00:02:21,123 was very important. 50 00:02:21,123 --> 00:02:23,600 You can't hold these things in. 51 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,155 They'll eat you up. 52 00:02:25,155 --> 00:02:27,025 You've got to have someone to talk to. 53 00:02:27,025 --> 00:02:30,310 And for a pastor, that means another pastor. 54 00:02:30,310 --> 00:02:32,700 Not someone in the church. 55 00:02:32,700 --> 00:02:34,653 I mean, I had brothers in the church 56 00:02:34,653 --> 00:02:36,744 that I would have coffee with 57 00:02:36,744 --> 00:02:41,744 and it would be more lighthearted. 58 00:02:41,744 --> 00:02:43,698 But to bear my soul - 59 00:02:43,698 --> 00:02:45,709 to say what do I do in this problem 60 00:02:45,709 --> 00:02:48,427 or that problem, 61 00:02:48,427 --> 00:02:53,118 that's a place that only another pastor has been in 62 00:02:53,118 --> 00:02:57,444 and can really sympathize with. 63 00:02:57,444 --> 00:03:01,271 So, I was again helped by these men 64 00:03:01,271 --> 00:03:04,751 that are in other churches 65 00:03:04,751 --> 00:03:07,354 that were able to console me. 66 00:03:07,354 --> 00:03:11,695 Brother Mack, he always manages to show up 67 00:03:11,695 --> 00:03:13,595 in his tour through Missouri 68 00:03:13,595 --> 00:03:16,214 whenever some difficulty has just happened. 69 00:03:16,214 --> 00:03:19,175 And Brother Mack, many many times 70 00:03:19,175 --> 00:03:21,738 was just such an encouragement to me 71 00:03:21,738 --> 00:03:26,068 and an uplifting presence in my home. 72 00:03:26,068 --> 00:03:29,109 And Charles with his wisdom so many times, 73 00:03:29,109 --> 00:03:30,969 his experience, 74 00:03:30,969 --> 00:03:34,042 would talk me through things and help me. 75 00:03:34,042 --> 00:03:37,224 So those men were very valuable. 76 00:03:37,224 --> 00:03:41,329 I learned during that period of time 77 00:03:41,329 --> 00:03:43,881 to pray the Psalms. 78 00:03:43,881 --> 00:03:47,236 You find in the psalm writers 79 00:03:47,236 --> 00:03:50,046 the very same feelings, 80 00:03:50,046 --> 00:03:52,008 distress and fear, 81 00:03:52,008 --> 00:03:56,987 and those kinds of feelings, 82 00:03:56,987 --> 00:03:58,468 discouragement - 83 00:03:58,468 --> 00:04:00,626 and they come out in the Psalms all the time. 84 00:04:00,626 --> 00:04:02,490 I learned to pray those Psalms - 85 00:04:02,490 --> 00:04:04,749 turn them into prayers. 86 00:04:04,749 --> 00:04:06,234 You can take a psalm - 87 00:04:06,234 --> 00:04:09,702 off the top of my head, Psalm 23. 88 00:04:09,702 --> 00:04:12,183 Lord, You say You're my Shepherd. 89 00:04:12,183 --> 00:04:14,370 Would You shepherd my soul? 90 00:04:14,370 --> 00:04:17,330 It's Your job to feed me, to protect me, 91 00:04:17,330 --> 00:04:19,364 to guard me, to lead me. 92 00:04:19,364 --> 00:04:22,321 Would You do that for me? 93 00:04:22,321 --> 00:04:24,972 You say in Your Word, Lord, 94 00:04:24,972 --> 00:04:26,282 that I'll have no want. 95 00:04:26,282 --> 00:04:29,817 Would You satisfy me completely in You? 96 00:04:29,817 --> 00:04:33,065 Would You lead me by those still waters? 97 00:04:33,065 --> 00:04:35,269 Lord, I long for those still waters. 98 00:04:35,269 --> 00:04:38,379 Would You cause me to lie down in green pastures? 99 00:04:38,379 --> 00:04:40,666 I need that right now. 100 00:04:40,666 --> 00:04:42,888 Would You restore my soul? 101 00:04:42,888 --> 00:04:44,990 I'm languishing. I'm wasting away. 102 00:04:44,990 --> 00:04:47,540 You know, turn it into a prayer like that. 103 00:04:47,540 --> 00:04:51,710 So practically, it was very useful for me 104 00:04:51,710 --> 00:04:54,681 during those seasons. 105 00:04:54,681 --> 00:04:59,932 My wife was an incredible help for me. 106 00:04:59,932 --> 00:05:01,361 Adam was given Eve. 107 00:05:01,361 --> 00:05:03,617 She was a helper suitable for him. 108 00:05:03,617 --> 00:05:06,678 My wife is my best counselor. 109 00:05:06,678 --> 00:05:08,452 She knows me inside and out. 110 00:05:08,452 --> 00:05:11,383 She could tear me down with a word 111 00:05:11,383 --> 00:05:13,217 and crush my spirit, 112 00:05:13,217 --> 00:05:16,088 or she can build me up with a word. 113 00:05:16,088 --> 00:05:17,647 She was my best counselor. 114 00:05:17,647 --> 00:05:20,732 She was right in all of the situations 115 00:05:20,732 --> 00:05:22,598 and knew them well. 116 00:05:22,598 --> 00:05:27,069 And so she was very much able to help me. 117 00:05:27,069 --> 00:05:30,515 You know, Job didn't have that, did he? 118 00:05:30,515 --> 00:05:33,266 He was going through those difficult times, 119 00:05:33,266 --> 00:05:37,335 incredibly painful, grievous times of affliction. 120 00:05:37,335 --> 00:05:39,350 What was his wife's counsel? 121 00:05:39,350 --> 00:05:41,739 Curse God and die. 122 00:05:41,739 --> 00:05:45,209 Manoah, Samson's father, on the other hand 123 00:05:45,209 --> 00:05:48,954 he and his wife saw the Angel of the Lord 124 00:05:48,954 --> 00:05:51,638 in that miraculous encounter there. 125 00:05:51,638 --> 00:05:53,140 The Angel of the Lord taken 126 00:05:53,140 --> 00:05:55,863 up into heaven by fire from the altar. 127 00:05:55,863 --> 00:05:57,933 Manoah fell on his face and he said, 128 00:05:57,933 --> 00:06:01,156 "We have seen the Lord. We will surely die." 129 00:06:01,158 --> 00:06:03,995 And he was very pessimistic 130 00:06:03,995 --> 00:06:06,069 and I'm like that oftentimes 131 00:06:06,069 --> 00:06:08,756 more than I care to admit. 132 00:06:08,756 --> 00:06:11,889 But it was Manoah's wife 133 00:06:11,889 --> 00:06:13,276 who had the word of faith 134 00:06:13,276 --> 00:06:14,756 and the word of comfort. 135 00:06:14,756 --> 00:06:18,788 She said if God had intended to kill us, 136 00:06:18,788 --> 00:06:21,866 He would not have accepted our sacrifice. 137 00:06:21,866 --> 00:06:25,918 He would not have shown us these things. 138 00:06:25,918 --> 00:06:27,981 And we would not have heard these things 139 00:06:27,981 --> 00:06:29,607 at this time. 140 00:06:29,607 --> 00:06:32,071 And so you see, right in all of that, 141 00:06:32,071 --> 00:06:34,370 it's very reasonable, 142 00:06:34,370 --> 00:06:40,053 very logical progression based on faith. 143 00:06:40,053 --> 00:06:42,251 And that was the word for Manoah. 144 00:06:42,251 --> 00:06:44,596 So my wife has been that for me. 145 00:06:44,596 --> 00:06:47,018 She's been my best counselor. 146 00:06:47,018 --> 00:06:48,601 James: What would you say 147 00:06:48,601 --> 00:06:50,819 to another pastor's wife if her husband 148 00:06:50,819 --> 00:06:53,661 is going through a deep time of discouragement 149 00:06:53,661 --> 00:06:55,724 and trials in the church? 150 00:06:55,724 --> 00:06:59,268 What can she do for her husband 151 00:06:59,268 --> 00:07:01,549 to help encourage him? 152 00:07:01,549 --> 00:07:03,439 Clint: I would tell her first off 153 00:07:03,439 --> 00:07:07,341 to recognize that he's not himself. 154 00:07:07,341 --> 00:07:09,682 He's got things on his mind 155 00:07:09,682 --> 00:07:12,721 that are just churning. 156 00:07:12,721 --> 00:07:15,235 And if he's sitting silent on the couch 157 00:07:15,235 --> 00:07:16,522 staring out the window, 158 00:07:16,522 --> 00:07:17,973 don't hold it against him. 159 00:07:17,973 --> 00:07:22,282 It's not that he's upset with you. 160 00:07:22,282 --> 00:07:26,880 And I would say to her 161 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,119 take over as much as you can 162 00:07:30,119 --> 00:07:32,337 in the way of responsibilities 163 00:07:32,337 --> 00:07:36,136 so that he's not juggling matters of God's people 164 00:07:36,136 --> 00:07:38,200 which are very burdensome, 165 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,042 troubling matters in his heart and his mind, 166 00:07:42,042 --> 00:07:46,028 and at the same time having to take on 167 00:07:46,028 --> 00:07:49,511 other responsibilities if she is able to do them. 168 00:07:49,511 --> 00:07:51,976 That would be helpful. 169 00:07:51,976 --> 00:07:54,382 I would say maintain an attitude 170 00:07:54,382 --> 00:07:57,409 of cheerfulness in the home. 171 00:07:57,409 --> 00:08:02,735 Go about your day cheerfully 172 00:08:02,735 --> 00:08:05,370 and with a glad spirit 173 00:08:05,370 --> 00:08:08,818 because that way it would tend to uplift him 174 00:08:08,818 --> 00:08:13,634 rather than two people who are struggling emotionally. 175 00:08:13,634 --> 00:08:17,642 And it's always such a benefit, isn't it? 176 00:08:17,642 --> 00:08:20,591 When I was down, my wife was up. 177 00:08:20,591 --> 00:08:24,252 And so I'm very thankful for that. 178 00:08:24,252 --> 00:08:26,157 My wife goes about humming. 179 00:08:26,157 --> 00:08:29,404 She hums plenty of songs. 180 00:08:29,404 --> 00:08:34,068 I suggested hum hymns that I can recognize 181 00:08:34,068 --> 00:08:35,741 because I recognize the tune 182 00:08:35,741 --> 00:08:38,591 and it's contagious. 183 00:08:38,591 --> 00:08:42,630 Gladness, cheerfulness of heart is contagious. 184 00:08:42,630 --> 00:08:43,800 So I would say that. 185 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,972 Those are practical things. 186 00:08:46,972 --> 00:08:49,971 James: As far as for the members in the congregation, 187 00:08:49,971 --> 00:08:53,001 what can they do to encourage their pastors? 188 00:08:53,001 --> 00:08:58,252 Clint: There's nothing like a confirming word. 189 00:08:58,252 --> 00:09:01,613 The tongue of the righteous is a tree of life. 190 00:09:01,613 --> 00:09:06,304 So to tell a pastor, "I was really helped 191 00:09:06,304 --> 00:09:08,974 by this thought you had in your sermon. 192 00:09:08,974 --> 00:09:10,584 Thank you for that." 193 00:09:10,584 --> 00:09:12,770 That's uplifting. 194 00:09:12,770 --> 00:09:15,250 I've gotten cards from people 195 00:09:15,250 --> 00:09:17,776 in my congregation. 196 00:09:17,776 --> 00:09:21,439 I've had ladies show up at my front door 197 00:09:21,439 --> 00:09:23,298 with a plant that they bought, 198 00:09:23,298 --> 00:09:24,940 a flower that they bought 199 00:09:24,940 --> 00:09:27,558 that was on sale and give it to me. 200 00:09:27,558 --> 00:09:29,175 It's very uplifting along with 201 00:09:29,175 --> 00:09:32,553 a little card of appreciation. 202 00:09:32,553 --> 00:09:35,414 My congregation has been very supportive 203 00:09:35,414 --> 00:09:37,216 and they love me. 204 00:09:37,216 --> 00:09:39,599 I've never doubted that. 205 00:09:39,599 --> 00:09:41,972 They've been behind me. 206 00:09:41,972 --> 00:09:45,581 They have acknowledged difficulties 207 00:09:45,581 --> 00:09:48,814 and that's a thing that helps a pastor. 208 00:09:48,814 --> 00:09:50,471 If someone comes up 209 00:09:50,471 --> 00:09:52,393 and puts their arm on your shoulder 210 00:09:52,393 --> 00:09:55,052 and says brother, I know that you're 211 00:09:55,052 --> 00:09:56,953 going through a hard time. 212 00:09:56,953 --> 00:10:01,166 I don't have any real solution 213 00:10:01,166 --> 00:10:03,556 to what you're going through. 214 00:10:03,556 --> 00:10:07,065 And I don't know it as sharply as you do, 215 00:10:07,065 --> 00:10:09,744 but I recognize that you're going through 216 00:10:09,744 --> 00:10:10,855 a hard time right now 217 00:10:10,855 --> 00:10:13,021 and I want you to know I'm praying for you. 218 00:10:13,021 --> 00:10:15,718 That's very confirming and uplifting. 219 00:10:15,718 --> 00:10:20,029 And I've gotten that from my congregation. 220 00:10:20,029 --> 00:10:23,052 The seasons that we've gone though, 221 00:10:23,052 --> 00:10:25,436 and oftentimes it's the case, 222 00:10:25,436 --> 00:10:27,552 I've talked to other pastors. 223 00:10:27,552 --> 00:10:29,632 The seasons they go through, 224 00:10:29,632 --> 00:10:32,603 there is a difficulty that's very narrow 225 00:10:32,603 --> 00:10:36,021 and it's surrounding a small 226 00:10:36,021 --> 00:10:40,259 either incident or a small group of people 227 00:10:40,259 --> 00:10:44,161 and that's where the burden is at. 228 00:10:44,161 --> 00:10:48,828 Ten percent are drawing 90% of the pastor's 229 00:10:48,828 --> 00:10:51,101 energy and attention. 230 00:10:51,101 --> 00:10:53,543 All the others are very supportive. 231 00:10:53,543 --> 00:10:55,753 They're kind of in the background 232 00:10:55,753 --> 00:11:00,454 and they're not causing any trouble. 233 00:11:00,454 --> 00:11:03,772 Those are the ones that I regret 234 00:11:03,772 --> 00:11:06,016 that I've not been able to minister to 235 00:11:06,016 --> 00:11:07,966 during those seasons where my mind 236 00:11:07,966 --> 00:11:12,508 is drawn in to a very pointed, 237 00:11:12,508 --> 00:11:15,780 narrow situation. 238 00:11:15,780 --> 00:11:17,332 But they've been supportive. 239 00:11:17,332 --> 00:11:19,060 They've recognized it 240 00:11:19,060 --> 00:11:20,992 and have helped me with cards 241 00:11:20,992 --> 00:11:22,822 and things like that. 242 00:11:22,822 --> 00:11:24,451 James: Do members of a church 243 00:11:24,451 --> 00:11:27,107 have responsibility to alert the pastors 244 00:11:27,107 --> 00:11:30,305 when they see divisions arising in the church? 245 00:11:30,305 --> 00:11:33,109 I mean, how important is communication 246 00:11:33,109 --> 00:11:35,417 of the sheep with the shepherds 247 00:11:35,417 --> 00:11:39,980 in order to maintain unity in the church? 248 00:11:39,980 --> 00:11:42,691 Clint: Well, when there's a report 249 00:11:42,691 --> 00:11:44,246 given to a pastor, 250 00:11:44,246 --> 00:11:47,962 it's very much different 251 00:11:47,962 --> 00:11:51,622 than one person reporting to another person 252 00:11:51,622 --> 00:11:53,332 in the congregation. 253 00:11:53,332 --> 00:11:55,201 And I'm thinking along the lines 254 00:11:55,201 --> 00:11:57,290 of gossip or slander - things like that 255 00:11:57,290 --> 00:11:59,144 that are not good. 256 00:11:59,144 --> 00:12:01,353 But nonetheless, there are times 257 00:12:01,353 --> 00:12:03,267 when a pastor may be oblivious 258 00:12:03,267 --> 00:12:05,963 to something that's going on in the church 259 00:12:05,963 --> 00:12:08,139 and it could be very helpful 260 00:12:08,139 --> 00:12:10,787 in heading it off at the pass 261 00:12:10,787 --> 00:12:15,472 or dealing with it before it becomes a major issue 262 00:12:15,472 --> 00:12:20,509 for him to know that. 263 00:12:20,509 --> 00:12:22,786 I think of the Apostle Paul. 264 00:12:22,786 --> 00:12:25,864 1 Corinthians 1. 265 00:12:25,864 --> 00:12:28,884 We've been informed by Chloe's people 266 00:12:28,884 --> 00:12:32,589 that divisions exist he said there. 267 00:12:32,589 --> 00:12:34,382 I think that's how he worded it. 268 00:12:34,382 --> 00:12:36,781 So here was a case where someone - 269 00:12:36,781 --> 00:12:38,344 Chloe's people - 270 00:12:38,344 --> 00:12:40,640 came to the apostle and alerted him 271 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,029 something was going on. 272 00:12:43,029 --> 00:12:45,947 In another place, "it's been reported 273 00:12:45,947 --> 00:12:48,274 that there's immorality among you," 274 00:12:48,274 --> 00:12:51,162 he said in 1 Corinthians 5. 275 00:12:51,162 --> 00:12:54,183 And another place, 1 Corinthians 11, 276 00:12:54,183 --> 00:13:01,149 he speaks about another report of division. 277 00:13:01,149 --> 00:13:06,609 So there are occasions when that is helpful 278 00:13:06,609 --> 00:13:08,163 and I think maybe a duty. 279 00:13:08,163 --> 00:13:10,019 Someone might be duty bound 280 00:13:10,019 --> 00:13:14,057 to say something to the pastor. 281 00:13:14,057 --> 00:13:16,760 But there's a fine line between 282 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:22,304 tattle-taling or being a gossip. 283 00:13:22,304 --> 00:13:25,361 So we'd have to definitely be on guard against that. 284 00:13:25,361 --> 00:13:26,863 James: In these last few years, 285 00:13:26,863 --> 00:13:28,633 what have you learned from the trials 286 00:13:28,633 --> 00:13:30,560 you've faced as a pastor? 287 00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:34,193 Is there anything you look back on and think 288 00:13:34,193 --> 00:13:37,620 I should have handled that differently? 289 00:13:37,620 --> 00:13:40,323 Clint: Well, I don't know about specific things 290 00:13:40,323 --> 00:13:42,572 that I could relate. 291 00:13:42,572 --> 00:13:45,797 But I do know in a general way 292 00:13:45,797 --> 00:13:48,531 I'm always second-guessing myself. 293 00:13:48,531 --> 00:13:52,427 I'm always looking back saying 294 00:13:52,427 --> 00:13:55,370 did I do right here? Did I not? 295 00:13:55,370 --> 00:13:57,924 And my wife is very helpful 296 00:13:57,924 --> 00:14:01,513 in helping me talk through things like that 297 00:14:01,513 --> 00:14:03,397 as well as other men. 298 00:14:03,397 --> 00:14:08,610 But it's difficult to know 299 00:14:08,610 --> 00:14:11,148 when you're in the middle of it 300 00:14:11,148 --> 00:14:13,973 what you should do; what you shouldn't do. 301 00:14:13,973 --> 00:14:15,798 You can receive outside counsel 302 00:14:15,798 --> 00:14:18,202 in the case of a single pastor, 303 00:14:18,202 --> 00:14:19,861 but it's a general counsel 304 00:14:19,861 --> 00:14:22,026 because the men you receive that counsel from 305 00:14:22,026 --> 00:14:23,528 are not a part of your church. 306 00:14:23,528 --> 00:14:25,204 They don't know the personalities. 307 00:14:25,204 --> 00:14:27,452 They might not know the issue at all 308 00:14:27,452 --> 00:14:28,973 in a very real way. 309 00:14:28,973 --> 00:14:30,636 They're not involved in it - 310 00:14:30,636 --> 00:14:32,279 the subtleties of it. 311 00:14:32,279 --> 00:14:33,990 And so the counsel is general 312 00:14:33,990 --> 00:14:38,132 and the decision falls to the man who's there. 313 00:14:38,132 --> 00:14:42,070 And it's easy to look back on it in the past 314 00:14:42,070 --> 00:14:44,482 and say, you know, I should have done this. 315 00:14:44,482 --> 00:14:47,146 I shouldn't have done that. 316 00:14:47,146 --> 00:14:50,358 There are times when I've let meetings 317 00:14:50,358 --> 00:14:53,223 between individuals happen 318 00:14:53,223 --> 00:14:55,632 that I had not been a part of. 319 00:14:55,632 --> 00:14:57,776 I elected to stay out of that meeting, 320 00:14:57,776 --> 00:14:59,436 that particular meeting, 321 00:14:59,436 --> 00:15:02,872 and just let the couples work it out 322 00:15:02,872 --> 00:15:04,993 or something like that. 323 00:15:04,993 --> 00:15:07,292 And I looked back to regret that, 324 00:15:07,292 --> 00:15:09,967 that I hadn't been there. 325 00:15:09,967 --> 00:15:12,412 But who's to know? 326 00:15:12,412 --> 00:15:15,710 I couldn't be faulted at the time 327 00:15:15,710 --> 00:15:18,451 for doing that I don't think. 328 00:15:18,451 --> 00:15:20,613 But it's something maybe in the future 329 00:15:20,613 --> 00:15:23,812 I would be more cautious about. 330 00:15:23,812 --> 00:15:28,252 I might have done it differently. 331 00:15:28,252 --> 00:15:31,288 Sometimes a person might let something 332 00:15:31,288 --> 00:15:34,475 go on longer than it needs to. 333 00:15:34,475 --> 00:15:41,001 And as a result, more damage done. 334 00:15:41,001 --> 00:15:42,225 Who knows? 335 00:15:42,225 --> 00:15:44,806 Those are difficult decisions. 336 00:15:44,806 --> 00:15:51,145 I tend to try and take the least invasive, 337 00:15:51,145 --> 00:15:53,902 the least heavy-handed approach 338 00:15:53,902 --> 00:15:55,412 that I can as a pastor. 339 00:15:55,412 --> 00:16:02,580 It just seems to be my philosophy I guess. 340 00:16:02,580 --> 00:16:04,638 Not shirking duty, of course. 341 00:16:04,638 --> 00:16:07,591 There's a real duty that a man has 342 00:16:07,591 --> 00:16:10,465 to confront sin and so on. 343 00:16:10,465 --> 00:16:12,592 But if there's an issue that's brewing 344 00:16:12,592 --> 00:16:14,248 or that's going on, 345 00:16:14,248 --> 00:16:15,980 I try and take at first - 346 00:16:15,980 --> 00:16:17,858 in the initial steps anyway - 347 00:16:17,858 --> 00:16:23,221 as least heavy-handed approach as I can. 348 00:16:23,221 --> 00:16:27,831 I liken it to a fire in a skillet on the oven. 349 00:16:27,831 --> 00:16:29,550 In the stove in the kitchen, 350 00:16:29,550 --> 00:16:33,637 an oil fire crops up in the skillet. 351 00:16:33,637 --> 00:16:36,602 There are a number of ways you can put it out. 352 00:16:36,602 --> 00:16:39,450 You can grab a pitcher of water 353 00:16:39,450 --> 00:16:41,015 and douse it. 354 00:16:41,015 --> 00:16:44,461 I mean, it might put it out, but it might spread it. 355 00:16:44,461 --> 00:16:46,186 It splatters and goes everywhere. 356 00:16:46,186 --> 00:16:48,546 They say you're not supposed to do that. 357 00:16:48,546 --> 00:16:52,428 You might grab the dry chemical fire extinguisher and spray it. 358 00:16:52,428 --> 00:16:54,741 You'll get it out, but it will make a huge mess 359 00:16:54,741 --> 00:16:57,985 that will take a whole day to clean out of your kitchen. 360 00:16:57,985 --> 00:17:01,202 Or you can reach over and take the lid. 361 00:17:01,202 --> 00:17:03,597 Set the lid gently on there 362 00:17:03,597 --> 00:17:05,104 and snuff it out. 363 00:17:05,104 --> 00:17:05,978 You see? 364 00:17:05,978 --> 00:17:09,987 There's least environmental impact. 365 00:17:09,987 --> 00:17:13,053 I tend to start out that way. 366 00:17:13,053 --> 00:17:16,971 And sometimes, it might let things 367 00:17:16,971 --> 00:17:21,068 go on longer than they need to be. 368 00:17:21,068 --> 00:17:23,769 When that happens, it's unfortunate. 369 00:17:23,769 --> 00:17:25,389 You look back on it and you say, 370 00:17:25,389 --> 00:17:28,393 well, it's proven out. 371 00:17:28,393 --> 00:17:31,960 I should have done things differently. 372 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,939 You can select another part of this interview below, 373 00:17:34,939 --> 00:17:38,030 or if you're listening, you can find the rest of the interview 374 00:17:38,030 --> 00:17:41,211 on illbehonest.com or our mobile app.