Title: Should a Church Leader Confess Gross Sin? Meta: In this Bible study Tim considers these questions, "What should a church leader do who is living in sexual sin and drunkenness? Should they bring it to the light? Should they be disciplined out of the church?" Tags: pastor,leader,discipline,excommunicate,confessing 1 00:00:05,107 --> 00:00:07,547 What we've been doing is 2 00:00:07,547 --> 00:00:09,541 we've been looking at questions 3 00:00:09,541 --> 00:00:15,762 with the target goal being 4 00:00:15,762 --> 00:00:19,257 that our discernment would be refined. 5 00:00:19,257 --> 00:00:21,295 My wife asked me ealier, 6 00:00:21,295 --> 00:00:23,440 "What questions are you answering tonight?" 7 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,795 And I told her about the first one, 8 00:00:25,795 --> 00:00:27,034 and she said, 9 00:00:27,034 --> 00:00:29,628 "What does that have to do with 10 00:00:29,628 --> 00:00:30,872 a bunch of young people?" 11 00:00:30,872 --> 00:00:33,393 And I said discernment. 12 00:00:33,393 --> 00:00:39,522 And so, that's been the goal here, 13 00:00:39,522 --> 00:00:43,392 is to look at the questions that are coming in, 14 00:00:43,392 --> 00:00:46,084 and then we kind of challenge ourselves 15 00:00:46,084 --> 00:00:51,208 to think Scripturally about how we should 16 00:00:51,208 --> 00:00:55,829 seek to answer these things. 17 00:00:55,829 --> 00:00:59,031 Now, kind of like last week, 18 00:00:59,031 --> 00:01:06,398 you remember Ken said something like 19 00:01:06,398 --> 00:01:09,888 is this a trick question? 20 00:01:09,888 --> 00:01:14,746 So yes, he asked is it a trick question. 21 00:01:14,746 --> 00:01:19,083 And it was a question that had to do 22 00:01:19,083 --> 00:01:24,627 with a woman from Hungary, 23 00:01:24,627 --> 00:01:27,354 and she had been in a three year relationship 24 00:01:27,354 --> 00:01:29,359 with a guy living with him 25 00:01:29,359 --> 00:01:31,800 and she got saved, 26 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:38,456 and now she was asking about the relationship. 27 00:01:38,456 --> 00:01:42,532 And then I brought other factors in 28 00:01:42,532 --> 00:01:44,705 that sometimes pastorally we consider 29 00:01:44,705 --> 00:01:46,890 about pre-existing relationships 30 00:01:46,890 --> 00:01:48,834 and whether you have children, 31 00:01:48,834 --> 00:01:52,582 and sometimes the answer isn't always so easy. 32 00:01:52,582 --> 00:01:59,317 And so, you understand when these questions come, 33 00:01:59,317 --> 00:02:02,750 you're thinking about various things. 34 00:02:02,750 --> 00:02:06,202 You're thinking about the good of the individual. 35 00:02:06,202 --> 00:02:11,033 You think about the good of the church, 36 00:02:11,033 --> 00:02:13,955 if the person writing to you is involved with a church. 37 00:02:13,955 --> 00:02:18,117 You think about the good of the person's family. 38 00:02:18,117 --> 00:02:23,788 I'll give you another example. 39 00:02:23,788 --> 00:02:25,677 I've had this happen. 40 00:02:25,677 --> 00:02:30,849 I've had an elder from another church call me, 41 00:02:30,849 --> 00:02:36,153 and say we have a man in our church. 42 00:02:36,153 --> 00:02:41,867 He ended up in a room with 43 00:02:41,867 --> 00:02:46,962 a professing Christian woman from another church. 44 00:02:46,962 --> 00:02:48,700 They didn't do anything, 45 00:02:48,700 --> 00:02:50,375 but they were ready to. 46 00:02:50,375 --> 00:02:53,656 And the man's wife called. 47 00:02:53,656 --> 00:02:55,352 And as soon as that happened, 48 00:02:55,352 --> 00:02:57,319 the man ran out of there. 49 00:02:57,319 --> 00:03:00,436 The man went, confessed it to his elders. 50 00:03:00,436 --> 00:03:03,737 One of the elders called me and said, 51 00:03:03,737 --> 00:03:08,040 do you think that this man 52 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,421 needs to confess this to his wife? 53 00:03:11,421 --> 00:03:14,162 Because obviously, it's going to be devastating to her. 54 00:03:14,162 --> 00:03:16,064 Even though nothing happened, 55 00:03:16,064 --> 00:03:22,625 he was all set for something to happen. 56 00:03:22,625 --> 00:03:30,850 And we can look at these situations 57 00:03:30,850 --> 00:03:34,688 and sometimes you're asking, 58 00:03:34,688 --> 00:03:39,511 how is this going to affect the family? 59 00:03:39,511 --> 00:03:42,620 My answer to this elder 60 00:03:42,620 --> 00:03:47,755 was you better believe you need to tell her, 61 00:03:47,755 --> 00:03:50,995 because you have a woman 62 00:03:50,995 --> 00:03:55,506 from another church who knows what happened. 63 00:03:55,506 --> 00:03:59,145 And if it ever came out that this happened 64 00:03:59,145 --> 00:04:02,414 and it was found out that all the elders knew 65 00:04:02,414 --> 00:04:06,148 and they basically covered this thing over, 66 00:04:06,148 --> 00:04:09,593 it would not just be bad. 67 00:04:09,593 --> 00:04:14,305 It's like, if a woman were to find out 68 00:04:14,305 --> 00:04:15,630 her husband was unfaithful, 69 00:04:15,630 --> 00:04:16,990 that's one thing. 70 00:04:16,990 --> 00:04:19,124 If a woman finds out through the grapevine 71 00:04:19,124 --> 00:04:21,185 that her husband was unfaithful, 72 00:04:21,185 --> 00:04:23,516 not from him - that's another thing. 73 00:04:23,516 --> 00:04:26,915 If a woman finds out through the grapevine 74 00:04:26,915 --> 00:04:28,942 that her husband was unfaithful 75 00:04:28,942 --> 00:04:31,771 and that the elders of the church knew about it. 76 00:04:31,771 --> 00:04:33,596 That's even another thing. 77 00:04:33,596 --> 00:04:36,438 You know some of the situations that have happened 78 00:04:36,438 --> 00:04:38,851 in some of the churches where there was 79 00:04:38,851 --> 00:04:41,671 some kind of indiscretion with some members 80 00:04:41,671 --> 00:04:43,717 in the church and with children, 81 00:04:43,717 --> 00:04:45,442 and where elders covered those over. 82 00:04:45,442 --> 00:04:46,976 I don't know if you know, 83 00:04:46,976 --> 00:04:50,247 but some big names in some reformed circles 84 00:04:50,247 --> 00:04:53,580 went down because of situations like that. 85 00:04:53,580 --> 00:04:55,914 Now, there was another situation 86 00:04:55,914 --> 00:04:59,306 John Sytsma and I were facing. 87 00:04:59,306 --> 00:05:01,064 A man had committed adultery 88 00:05:01,064 --> 00:05:02,923 before he became a Christian. 89 00:05:02,923 --> 00:05:04,673 His wife was unconverted, 90 00:05:04,673 --> 00:05:06,618 and he told us, 91 00:05:06,618 --> 00:05:11,755 if I tell her she will divorce me. 92 00:05:11,755 --> 00:05:13,686 And we knew her. 93 00:05:13,686 --> 00:05:16,027 And we knew he was probably right. 94 00:05:16,027 --> 00:05:20,644 And we told him not to tell her. 95 00:05:20,644 --> 00:05:23,095 And in that case, 96 00:05:23,095 --> 00:05:28,898 the goal is we were seeking to protect the marriage, 97 00:05:28,898 --> 00:05:31,177 and we believed that that was the best way. 98 00:05:31,177 --> 00:05:34,907 John and I both agreed that that was the best way. 99 00:05:34,907 --> 00:05:40,044 See, what we're dealing with here, 100 00:05:40,044 --> 00:05:43,890 the goal here has been this, 101 00:05:43,890 --> 00:05:45,627 from way back, 102 00:05:45,627 --> 00:05:49,313 I was dealing with this kind of Christianity 103 00:05:49,313 --> 00:05:51,881 that is just a checklist. 104 00:05:51,881 --> 00:05:53,820 Right and wrong. 105 00:05:53,820 --> 00:05:55,517 Do's and don't's. 106 00:05:55,517 --> 00:05:57,066 Give me the list. 107 00:05:57,066 --> 00:05:59,076 But it's not like that. 108 00:05:59,076 --> 00:06:02,051 Life isn't like that. 109 00:06:02,051 --> 00:06:08,039 And in fact, I've really been contemplating 110 00:06:08,039 --> 00:06:10,554 Luke 6 and how our Lord... 111 00:06:10,554 --> 00:06:13,811 it's like the show bread. 112 00:06:13,811 --> 00:06:15,964 Nobody can eat it but the priest. 113 00:06:15,964 --> 00:06:17,561 Check that. 114 00:06:17,561 --> 00:06:21,217 Oh, but a hungry man comes in with some troops with him, 115 00:06:21,217 --> 00:06:24,532 and then it's ok. 116 00:06:24,532 --> 00:06:26,310 They're guiltless. 117 00:06:26,310 --> 00:06:29,808 They broke the law, but they're guiltless. 118 00:06:29,808 --> 00:06:32,837 You see, the principals that the Lord wants 119 00:06:32,837 --> 00:06:34,758 us to think about. 120 00:06:34,758 --> 00:06:39,875 Now, I say all that just leading into this. 121 00:06:39,875 --> 00:06:45,165 You all might say when I bring this out, 122 00:06:45,165 --> 00:06:46,804 are you kidding us? 123 00:06:46,804 --> 00:06:51,505 But here's the thing that I want you to think about. 124 00:06:51,505 --> 00:06:55,252 I want you to think about the man, 125 00:06:55,252 --> 00:06:58,343 potential family, 126 00:06:58,343 --> 00:07:00,489 the church, 127 00:07:00,489 --> 00:07:08,439 and I want you running this through the lens of Scripture. 128 00:07:08,439 --> 00:07:10,981 Let's wrestle with this together. 129 00:07:10,981 --> 00:07:17,324 Maybe this one doesn't take that much wrestling. 130 00:07:17,324 --> 00:07:18,979 Let's just handle it. 131 00:07:18,979 --> 00:07:21,538 "I'm a young associate pastor..." 132 00:07:21,538 --> 00:07:23,708 and he writes anonymously. 133 00:07:23,708 --> 00:07:26,585 "I'm a young associate pastor." 134 00:07:26,585 --> 00:07:28,913 So he's young. 135 00:07:28,913 --> 00:07:31,122 He's not the primary pastor. 136 00:07:31,122 --> 00:07:34,292 He's an associate pastor in Tennessee. 137 00:07:34,292 --> 00:07:37,090 "I really need some advice. 138 00:07:37,090 --> 00:07:41,142 I'm struggling praying and studying the Word 139 00:07:41,142 --> 00:07:44,061 like I once was." 140 00:07:44,061 --> 00:07:46,381 Or I'm struggling with praying 141 00:07:46,381 --> 00:07:50,773 and studying the Word like I used to, 142 00:07:50,773 --> 00:07:58,239 I think that's what he's saying there. 143 00:07:58,239 --> 00:08:04,182 "I have fallen into all kinds of sexual sin 144 00:08:04,182 --> 00:08:07,609 with the opposite sex. 145 00:08:07,609 --> 00:08:11,529 And I feel like I can't stop. 146 00:08:11,529 --> 00:08:14,161 I'm really struggling. 147 00:08:14,161 --> 00:08:16,722 I've been drinking a lot lately. 148 00:08:16,722 --> 00:08:19,696 I really feel like I should leave the pastorate 149 00:08:19,696 --> 00:08:21,766 for a long time. 150 00:08:21,766 --> 00:08:25,495 Please give me some extremely sound advice." 151 00:08:25,495 --> 00:08:29,293 Now, one of the things that I've been emphasizing is this: 152 00:08:29,293 --> 00:08:34,785 You want to analyze the question. 153 00:08:34,785 --> 00:08:38,379 Sometimes the questions are not valid. 154 00:08:38,379 --> 00:08:40,669 They're not legitimate. 155 00:08:40,669 --> 00:08:43,392 Sometimes people have presuppositions 156 00:08:43,392 --> 00:08:45,559 that are wrong. 157 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:51,082 Sometimes people say things - 158 00:08:51,082 --> 00:09:00,160 people love to put protective spins on things. 159 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,834 Even a guy that's admitting things like this, 160 00:09:02,834 --> 00:09:05,659 and even a guy that admits things like this anonymously. 161 00:09:05,659 --> 00:09:10,099 There is still such a root of self-protectiveness 162 00:09:10,099 --> 00:09:18,479 in mankind that he says, "I'm struggling." 163 00:09:18,479 --> 00:09:21,461 I hear that a lot. 164 00:09:21,461 --> 00:09:24,727 "I'm struggling with this sin." 165 00:09:24,727 --> 00:09:25,758 And you listen, 166 00:09:25,758 --> 00:09:26,745 and it's like, 167 00:09:26,745 --> 00:09:29,062 No, you're not. 168 00:09:29,062 --> 00:09:31,825 You're not struggling. 169 00:09:31,825 --> 00:09:37,551 You're diving in. 170 00:09:37,551 --> 00:09:43,503 It's not like you're the lamb who has 171 00:09:43,503 --> 00:09:46,692 inadvertently fallen into the mud 172 00:09:46,692 --> 00:09:49,503 and is trying like crazy to get out. 173 00:09:49,503 --> 00:09:53,121 This is the pig that's going into the mud on purpose, 174 00:09:53,121 --> 00:09:54,980 over and over and over again. 175 00:09:54,980 --> 00:09:56,371 There's not a struggle. 176 00:09:56,371 --> 00:09:59,924 And maybe, somebody would say, 177 00:09:59,924 --> 00:10:06,978 Aren't you being kind of hard on the guy? 178 00:10:06,978 --> 00:10:08,933 "I really need some advice." 179 00:10:08,933 --> 00:10:10,372 This is how he starts. 180 00:10:10,372 --> 00:10:14,314 "I'm struggling praying and studying the Word 181 00:10:14,314 --> 00:10:19,670 like I once did." 182 00:10:19,670 --> 00:10:23,105 I don't think any of us would be surprised at that. 183 00:10:23,105 --> 00:10:27,532 Studying the Word and gleaning from it profitably; 184 00:10:27,532 --> 00:10:32,384 praying and having profitable communion with the Lord. 185 00:10:32,384 --> 00:10:34,790 You just think about 1 John 1. 186 00:10:34,790 --> 00:10:37,552 And walking in the light as He is in the light, 187 00:10:37,552 --> 00:10:40,833 and it is there that we have fellowship 188 00:10:40,833 --> 00:10:44,282 with the Father and the Son. 189 00:10:44,282 --> 00:10:48,849 And we would expect, of course, 190 00:10:48,849 --> 00:10:51,467 that a prayer life would fail, 191 00:10:51,467 --> 00:10:54,006 and the Word would fail. 192 00:10:54,006 --> 00:10:57,459 This is the one that when I was mentioning it, 193 00:10:57,459 --> 00:10:59,743 my wife said what does that have to do 194 00:10:59,743 --> 00:11:01,060 with young people? 195 00:11:01,060 --> 00:11:06,485 Well, it's us looking at this and saying, 196 00:11:06,485 --> 00:11:11,073 What do you tell the guy? 197 00:11:11,073 --> 00:11:19,270 It's us applying Scripture and being discerning. 198 00:11:19,270 --> 00:11:22,795 What do you say? 199 00:11:22,795 --> 00:11:29,237 Imagine yourself coming like the Lord came 200 00:11:29,237 --> 00:11:31,451 to the rich, young ruler. 201 00:11:31,451 --> 00:11:34,506 The guy in the end rejected Christ. 202 00:11:34,506 --> 00:11:37,200 And Mark tells us He loved him. 203 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:38,661 And you come to people, 204 00:11:38,661 --> 00:11:41,211 and you can just be disgusted by this guy. 205 00:11:41,211 --> 00:11:46,089 You could just say, seriously?? 206 00:11:46,089 --> 00:11:48,538 You're in the ministry? 207 00:11:48,538 --> 00:11:49,812 You're a drunk. 208 00:11:49,812 --> 00:11:52,343 You're a fornicator. 209 00:11:52,343 --> 00:11:54,264 Seriously? 210 00:11:54,264 --> 00:12:02,889 But if you love him and you want to help him, 211 00:12:02,889 --> 00:12:14,590 what do you say to him? 212 00:12:17,552 --> 00:12:18,670 (from the room) 213 00:12:18,670 --> 00:12:20,315 The first thing that would seem 214 00:12:20,315 --> 00:12:22,155 evidence of repentance in his life 215 00:12:22,155 --> 00:12:24,901 is if he goes to the other church leaders, 216 00:12:24,901 --> 00:12:26,852 confesses his sin and steps down, 217 00:12:26,852 --> 00:12:29,055 because he's not meeting the qualifications 218 00:12:29,055 --> 00:12:30,300 of an elder. 219 00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:32,794 He's a drunkard like you said. 220 00:12:32,794 --> 00:12:34,880 He needs to do that. 221 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,571 I don't know if that's the first thing he needs to do, 222 00:12:37,571 --> 00:12:39,964 but if he's really wanting to follow Christ, 223 00:12:39,964 --> 00:12:41,936 he should be willing to get in the light 224 00:12:41,936 --> 00:12:45,081 and not try to cover this up. 225 00:12:45,081 --> 00:12:46,221 Tim: 226 00:12:46,221 --> 00:12:50,614 Yeah, I remember, 227 00:12:50,614 --> 00:12:54,300 James' father-in-law, 228 00:12:54,300 --> 00:12:58,371 I often would go to Bob for counsel 229 00:12:58,371 --> 00:12:59,801 on various things. 230 00:12:59,801 --> 00:13:03,154 And Bob's counsel was, 231 00:13:03,154 --> 00:13:04,535 bring it in the light. 232 00:13:04,535 --> 00:13:05,742 Bring it in the light. 233 00:13:05,742 --> 00:13:09,146 He felt like if you've got any kind of situation, 234 00:13:09,146 --> 00:13:11,218 you just bring it all in the light. 235 00:13:11,218 --> 00:13:12,622 That's the safest thing. 236 00:13:12,622 --> 00:13:17,849 Get it all out in the open. 237 00:13:17,849 --> 00:13:20,765 Like you heard me just talk about 238 00:13:20,765 --> 00:13:23,537 John Sytsma and I dealing with one situation 239 00:13:23,537 --> 00:13:26,320 where we didn't bring everything into the light. 240 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:34,534 But I think Bob's counsel 98% of the time... 241 00:13:34,534 --> 00:13:42,422 in some calculated situations, 242 00:13:42,422 --> 00:13:49,138 where perhaps bringing something into the light 243 00:13:49,138 --> 00:13:53,549 would create more devastation 244 00:13:53,549 --> 00:13:56,221 than it would help. 245 00:13:56,221 --> 00:14:00,034 Like a guy and a girl are getting married, 246 00:14:00,034 --> 00:14:04,536 and you come from not so pristine pasts. 247 00:14:04,536 --> 00:14:07,698 You certainly don't need to say everything 248 00:14:07,698 --> 00:14:10,243 and tell everything and dump all the garbage 249 00:14:10,243 --> 00:14:12,834 out on the table. 250 00:14:12,834 --> 00:14:17,484 You want to communicate things that are necessary 251 00:14:17,484 --> 00:14:20,978 to communicate. 252 00:14:20,978 --> 00:14:22,886 But there are things that are not, 253 00:14:22,886 --> 00:14:25,212 in some cases, necessary. 254 00:14:25,212 --> 00:14:32,743 But where you have situations where, 255 00:14:32,743 --> 00:14:37,440 like I say, in most situations, 256 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,235 getting it out in the light... 257 00:14:41,235 --> 00:14:44,374 And see he's anonmously reaching out 258 00:14:44,374 --> 00:14:47,150 through the Internet. 259 00:14:47,150 --> 00:14:50,777 He really does, like James says, 260 00:14:50,777 --> 00:14:52,803 he needs to take this before 261 00:14:52,803 --> 00:14:55,285 whatever the leadership structure is, 262 00:14:55,285 --> 00:14:56,736 he's an associate pastor. 263 00:14:56,736 --> 00:14:59,319 Maybe there's one primary pastor. 264 00:14:59,319 --> 00:15:02,445 Whatever that leadership structure looks like, 265 00:15:02,445 --> 00:15:05,755 but he needs to go. 266 00:15:05,755 --> 00:15:09,614 That would be the very first thing. 267 00:15:09,614 --> 00:15:12,820 It sounds like he's young and single. 268 00:15:12,820 --> 00:15:19,190 And yes, he needs to confess it to the leadership. 269 00:15:19,190 --> 00:15:29,027 If there was any legitimacy to his repentance, 270 00:15:29,027 --> 00:15:35,100 that's where it would need to start. 271 00:15:35,100 --> 00:15:37,051 Anybody think of anything else 272 00:15:37,051 --> 00:15:43,209 that you would say or do? 273 00:15:55,759 --> 00:15:59,700 One of the things that it sounds to me like 274 00:15:59,700 --> 00:16:06,105 is he's talking about leaving the pastorate for a long time. 275 00:16:06,105 --> 00:16:08,492 We're not only dealing with qualifications 276 00:16:08,492 --> 00:16:10,397 for eldership here, 277 00:16:10,397 --> 00:16:14,960 we're dealing with the marks of true Christianity 278 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,846 when you're dealing with this kind of situation. 279 00:16:18,846 --> 00:16:23,722 And you actually have somebody that 280 00:16:23,722 --> 00:16:28,696 very likely falls into a category of 1 Corinthians 5. 281 00:16:28,696 --> 00:16:35,291 A man that very likely should be excommunicated immediately. 282 00:16:35,291 --> 00:16:40,928 Now, look, if we were in the leadership, 283 00:16:40,928 --> 00:16:45,615 and one of the elders came into the elder's meeting, 284 00:16:45,615 --> 00:16:48,809 and in humble contriteness, 285 00:16:48,809 --> 00:16:55,284 confessed disqualifying sins, 286 00:16:55,284 --> 00:17:02,854 you probably wouldn't react like 1 Corinthians 5. 287 00:17:02,854 --> 00:17:07,530 Again, it's not always clear cut. 288 00:17:07,530 --> 00:17:10,544 You have to weigh out all the factors. 289 00:17:10,544 --> 00:17:13,553 You have to weigh out the implications to family, 290 00:17:13,553 --> 00:17:16,184 the implications to the individual, 291 00:17:16,184 --> 00:17:19,103 the implications to the church. 292 00:17:19,103 --> 00:17:21,598 We have had situations where 293 00:17:21,598 --> 00:17:23,897 people have come to the elders 294 00:17:23,897 --> 00:17:30,363 confessing sin in seemingly broken fashion, 295 00:17:30,363 --> 00:17:35,994 but their sin has been so repeated in nature 296 00:17:35,994 --> 00:17:40,761 that we felt like we needed to excommunicate. 297 00:17:40,761 --> 00:17:43,882 Even though at the time, they're confessing it. 298 00:17:43,882 --> 00:17:47,449 But there's some aggravated issue 299 00:17:47,449 --> 00:17:51,093 in the situation that we felt like 300 00:17:51,093 --> 00:17:53,689 for the sake of the church, it was necessary. 301 00:17:53,689 --> 00:17:56,668 There's been other times when 302 00:17:56,668 --> 00:18:00,164 things have been confessed to the elders 303 00:18:00,164 --> 00:18:03,298 and nobody ever knew. 304 00:18:03,298 --> 00:18:07,893 It seemed like it was a first time thing. 305 00:18:07,893 --> 00:18:12,603 They came to the elders; it wasn't discovered. 306 00:18:12,603 --> 00:18:18,511 They seemed to be broken and confessed the matter. 307 00:18:18,511 --> 00:18:20,252 But you have to pray. 308 00:18:20,252 --> 00:18:22,490 You have to wrestle through these things. 309 00:18:22,490 --> 00:18:25,145 And you have to examine the different 310 00:18:25,145 --> 00:18:29,636 passages of Scripture. 311 00:18:29,636 --> 00:18:31,917 I would say that if somebody in the church 312 00:18:31,917 --> 00:18:34,711 discovered this to be true about this guy 313 00:18:34,711 --> 00:18:37,521 before he had confessed anything 314 00:18:37,521 --> 00:18:40,588 that probably excommunication would be in order. 315 00:18:40,588 --> 00:18:43,669 And excommunication is not the end of the line. 316 00:18:43,669 --> 00:18:46,579 It's not like if he is repentant, 317 00:18:46,579 --> 00:18:48,964 and the repentance is genuine, 318 00:18:48,964 --> 00:18:50,724 that he can't be restored. 319 00:18:50,724 --> 00:18:52,386 Not to the ministry. 320 00:18:52,386 --> 00:18:54,345 And I would say very likely never again 321 00:18:54,345 --> 00:18:56,234 to the ministry. 322 00:18:56,234 --> 00:18:58,107 And again, that might even bring up 323 00:18:58,107 --> 00:19:03,961 another question. 324 00:19:03,961 --> 00:19:08,047 If a guy does this, and it seems like he's repentant, 325 00:19:08,047 --> 00:19:10,808 and it seems like he's a genuine Christian, 326 00:19:10,808 --> 00:19:12,745 is there a place in the ministry for him 327 00:19:12,745 --> 00:19:15,035 again in the future? 328 00:19:15,035 --> 00:19:18,648 Well, I think the question is simple. 329 00:19:18,648 --> 00:19:20,686 Answering it's not so easy, 330 00:19:20,686 --> 00:19:22,272 but the question is simple. 331 00:19:22,272 --> 00:19:25,014 Does he meet the qualifications? 332 00:19:25,014 --> 00:19:30,449 Many of them are in 1 Timothy and Titus, 333 00:19:30,449 --> 00:19:33,688 and I'm talking about the whole of those books, 334 00:19:33,688 --> 00:19:35,755 not just the two isolated chapters. 335 00:19:35,755 --> 00:19:38,809 There are other qualifications that are given throughout there. 336 00:19:38,809 --> 00:19:40,454 And you can go to other places. 337 00:19:40,454 --> 00:19:41,888 1 Peter would be a good place. 338 00:19:41,888 --> 00:19:43,208 Acts would be a good place. 339 00:19:43,208 --> 00:19:46,366 There's other places where the qualifications are seen. 340 00:19:46,366 --> 00:19:48,638 And that's really the question. 341 00:19:48,638 --> 00:19:50,258 The question isn't, 342 00:19:50,258 --> 00:19:52,438 well, can somebody who's fallen into sin 343 00:19:52,438 --> 00:19:54,709 be put back into the ministry at some point. 344 00:19:54,709 --> 00:19:56,747 Or, if they've never been in the ministry, 345 00:19:56,747 --> 00:19:59,008 can they be put into the ministry at some time 346 00:19:59,008 --> 00:20:00,218 in the future; 347 00:20:00,218 --> 00:20:03,283 if they've committed certain sins while they were a Christian. 348 00:20:03,283 --> 00:20:06,171 The real issue that has to be answered is, 349 00:20:06,171 --> 00:20:08,538 do they meet the qualifications? 350 00:20:08,538 --> 00:20:11,325 And the qualification for the ministry is blamelessness. 351 00:20:11,325 --> 00:20:14,476 So, that's the question that the church has to ask. 352 00:20:14,476 --> 00:20:19,258 Does an individual meet that qualification? 353 00:20:19,258 --> 00:20:24,263 Because as has often been emphasized 354 00:20:24,263 --> 00:20:26,184 and needs to be emphasized, 355 00:20:26,184 --> 00:20:29,529 there's a must in 1 Timothy 3. 356 00:20:29,529 --> 00:20:31,301 You must meet those qualifications. 357 00:20:31,301 --> 00:20:33,846 Those are not negotiable. 358 00:20:33,846 --> 00:20:38,714 Those are not optional. 359 00:20:38,714 --> 00:20:40,107 Any other thoughts, James? 360 00:20:40,107 --> 00:20:40,907 (from the room) 361 00:20:40,907 --> 00:20:44,477 You know we had a lady call the church today. 362 00:20:44,477 --> 00:20:47,164 She's in San Antonio. 363 00:20:47,164 --> 00:20:49,812 And she ran across the church website, 364 00:20:49,812 --> 00:20:53,283 and she was wanting counsel because 365 00:20:53,283 --> 00:20:57,433 the pastor of her church had committed adultery, 366 00:20:57,433 --> 00:21:02,452 and it got confessed just to the leadership team, 367 00:21:02,452 --> 00:21:05,145 and they voted to let him start preaching again 368 00:21:05,145 --> 00:21:06,745 in 30 days. 369 00:21:06,745 --> 00:21:09,427 And they're not going to tell the entire congregation, 370 00:21:09,427 --> 00:21:11,383 so the whole congregation does not know 371 00:21:11,383 --> 00:21:12,775 he committed adultery. 372 00:21:12,775 --> 00:21:15,180 And in 30 days, he's going to be preaching again. 373 00:21:15,180 --> 00:21:16,295 Tim: But she knows. 374 00:21:16,295 --> 00:21:17,344 How did she find out? 375 00:21:17,344 --> 00:21:19,893 (James) Because her husband is in the leadership. 376 00:21:19,893 --> 00:21:21,307 And so they had a meeting, 377 00:21:21,307 --> 00:21:22,941 and that's where it was confessed. 378 00:21:22,941 --> 00:21:25,044 But even there, it just shows 379 00:21:25,044 --> 00:21:26,593 there's no fear of God, 380 00:21:26,593 --> 00:21:27,843 no fear of His Word, 381 00:21:27,843 --> 00:21:32,092 no sense of what does it mean to be in leadership, 382 00:21:32,092 --> 00:21:33,670 and it's just sad to know 383 00:21:33,670 --> 00:21:35,647 that that stuff is being tolerated 384 00:21:35,647 --> 00:21:37,472 all over the place. 385 00:21:37,472 --> 00:21:38,531 Tim: It is. 386 00:21:38,531 --> 00:21:40,165 And what we want to think about 387 00:21:40,165 --> 00:21:43,163 is not what most of the mainline churches 388 00:21:43,163 --> 00:21:44,935 are willing to accept. 389 00:21:44,935 --> 00:21:46,792 We need to look at Scripture. 390 00:21:46,792 --> 00:21:53,447 Look, Judgment Day for the lost is going to be bad. 391 00:21:53,447 --> 00:21:57,742 Judgment Day for those who took it upon themselves 392 00:21:57,742 --> 00:22:03,362 to go into ministry when they weren't called, is bad. 393 00:22:03,362 --> 00:22:05,506 If you're lost, it's real bad. 394 00:22:05,506 --> 00:22:09,340 And if you're saved, 1 Corinthians 3 says, 395 00:22:09,340 --> 00:22:14,395 it's still bad. 396 00:22:14,395 --> 00:22:19,790 Because what it is, it's largely a wasted life. 397 00:22:19,790 --> 00:22:21,839 What you see in 1 Corinthians 3 398 00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:24,352 is men being saved so as by fire. 399 00:22:24,352 --> 00:22:26,104 What you see is their ministry 400 00:22:26,104 --> 00:22:27,754 basically being burned up. 401 00:22:27,754 --> 00:22:29,921 Wood, hay, and stubble. 402 00:22:29,921 --> 00:22:32,020 And that's what you'll end up with if 403 00:22:32,020 --> 00:22:34,292 God hasn't called you to the ministry. 404 00:22:34,292 --> 00:22:37,137 And I'm not just saying whether your ministry is biblical. 405 00:22:37,137 --> 00:22:40,369 I'm saying being a man who God has actually 406 00:22:40,369 --> 00:22:44,802 equipped to handle His Word. 407 00:22:44,802 --> 00:22:47,285 There can be Christians who carry their Bibles 408 00:22:47,285 --> 00:22:48,721 around under their arms, 409 00:22:48,721 --> 00:22:54,174 but God hasn't really called them to be in that place. 410 00:22:54,174 --> 00:22:57,901 Anybody have any other thoughts on that?