Title: Christians & Debt: The Wicked Borrow but Do Not Pay Back Meta: How should Christians view and treat financial debt? Should Christians ever get into debt? Are different kinds of debt more significant or urgent than others? Should Christians ignore paying off debt for the sake of using their money to help others? Tags: debt,money,owe,psalm 37:21 1 00:00:04,942 --> 00:00:07,404 From Julia: 2 00:00:07,404 --> 00:00:10,873 "I have debts that I defaulted on." 3 00:00:10,873 --> 00:00:12,372 So this is a debt question. 4 00:00:12,372 --> 00:00:15,250 This is a Christian and money question. 5 00:00:15,250 --> 00:00:17,097 "I have debts that I defaulted on 6 00:00:17,097 --> 00:00:20,456 and the company wrote off the debt. 7 00:00:20,456 --> 00:00:24,654 I have debt that is with a collection agency. 8 00:00:24,654 --> 00:00:26,301 They haven't written it off. 9 00:00:26,301 --> 00:00:28,847 I have student loans. 10 00:00:28,847 --> 00:00:34,508 How do I approach the different kinds of debt? 11 00:00:34,508 --> 00:00:39,774 For example, the defaulted debt - 12 00:00:39,774 --> 00:00:41,652 do I send the credit card company 13 00:00:41,652 --> 00:00:43,672 the defaulted amount? 14 00:00:43,672 --> 00:00:50,133 Or do I give the money to the poor?" 15 00:00:50,133 --> 00:00:52,509 So that's the question. 16 00:00:52,509 --> 00:00:56,535 So, a verse that I hope 17 00:00:56,535 --> 00:00:59,157 would jump out at everybody 18 00:00:59,157 --> 00:01:02,514 is Psalm 37:21. 19 00:01:02,514 --> 00:01:05,805 Somebody look that up and read that. 20 00:01:05,805 --> 00:01:18,045 Psalm 37:21 21 00:01:18,045 --> 00:01:21,543 "The wicked borrows but does not pay back, 22 00:01:21,543 --> 00:01:29,727 but the righteous is generous and gives." 23 00:01:29,727 --> 00:01:31,755 Tim: So, say that again. 24 00:01:31,755 --> 00:01:34,803 "The wicked borrows but does not pay back." 25 00:01:34,803 --> 00:01:36,252 Tim: "The wicked borrows 26 00:01:36,252 --> 00:01:42,035 and does not pay back." 27 00:01:42,035 --> 00:01:48,522 Now, to read that verse in this context - 28 00:01:48,522 --> 00:01:50,890 talking about debt with credit cards, 29 00:01:50,890 --> 00:02:03,112 student loans, etc., 30 00:02:03,112 --> 00:02:06,603 it might lead you just to simply think 31 00:02:06,603 --> 00:02:12,518 about borrowing from banks; 32 00:02:12,518 --> 00:02:15,039 taking out a formal loan. 33 00:02:15,039 --> 00:02:18,714 But listen, borrowing. 34 00:02:18,714 --> 00:02:21,539 Borrowing. 35 00:02:21,539 --> 00:02:28,451 Young people - we have a lot of young people here. 36 00:02:28,451 --> 00:02:30,716 This has to do with whether you borrow 37 00:02:30,716 --> 00:02:32,430 from a family member, 38 00:02:32,430 --> 00:02:35,180 whether you borrow from a church member, 39 00:02:35,180 --> 00:02:39,836 whether you borrow from your friend. 40 00:02:39,836 --> 00:02:43,377 Listen, when you take somebody else's property 41 00:02:43,377 --> 00:02:45,195 and you don't return it, 42 00:02:45,195 --> 00:02:48,075 or you return it in a condition 43 00:02:48,075 --> 00:02:51,250 other than you borrowed it in, 44 00:02:51,250 --> 00:02:52,890 do you know under Moses 45 00:02:52,890 --> 00:02:55,420 there were things said about if you borrowed something 46 00:02:55,420 --> 00:02:59,024 and you brought it back in not the same condition - 47 00:02:59,024 --> 00:03:02,775 like let's say you borrowed an animal 48 00:03:02,775 --> 00:03:05,007 to plow with and you brought the thing back 49 00:03:05,007 --> 00:03:07,001 lame or dead. 50 00:03:07,001 --> 00:03:11,979 Do you remember what Scripture says? 51 00:03:11,979 --> 00:03:13,778 Anybody have any idea? 52 00:03:13,778 --> 00:03:17,596 (from the room): Where is that at? 53 00:03:17,596 --> 00:03:24,788 Tim: Like Exodus 22:14 would be one text. 54 00:03:24,788 --> 00:03:27,091 "If a man borrows anything of his neighbor 55 00:03:27,091 --> 00:03:28,941 and it is injured or dies, 56 00:03:28,941 --> 00:03:30,886 the owner not being with it, 57 00:03:30,886 --> 00:03:32,554 he shall make full restitution." 58 00:03:32,554 --> 00:03:34,236 Tim: Ok, now catch that. 59 00:03:34,236 --> 00:03:35,708 "The owner not being with it." 60 00:03:35,708 --> 00:03:37,772 So the idea is this. 61 00:03:37,772 --> 00:03:41,581 If I ask you to come mow my lawn 62 00:03:41,581 --> 00:03:46,351 and the owner is with the riding lawn mower, 63 00:03:46,351 --> 00:03:47,404 the owner comes. 64 00:03:47,404 --> 00:03:50,863 Let's say Glenn buys a riding lawn mower 65 00:03:50,863 --> 00:03:53,461 and I break my leg and I can't go out and mow it. 66 00:03:53,461 --> 00:03:55,113 And I say, Glenn, would you come? 67 00:03:55,113 --> 00:03:57,375 He's out here mowing my yard 68 00:03:57,375 --> 00:04:01,037 and he hits the stump out here 69 00:04:01,037 --> 00:04:04,042 and he shatters his mower deck. 70 00:04:04,042 --> 00:04:06,517 And I'm not responsible. 71 00:04:06,517 --> 00:04:08,395 Why? Because the owner was with it. 72 00:04:08,395 --> 00:04:11,198 But if I go over there and I borrow that thing from him. 73 00:04:11,198 --> 00:04:12,354 I didn't break my leg. 74 00:04:12,354 --> 00:04:13,631 And I bring it over here 75 00:04:13,631 --> 00:04:15,465 and I haul it back over there, 76 00:04:15,465 --> 00:04:17,018 and I'm returning it to him - 77 00:04:17,018 --> 00:04:25,148 well, sorry, I hit the stump. 78 00:04:25,148 --> 00:04:27,644 I am surprised at young Christians - 79 00:04:27,644 --> 00:04:31,011 how often they do those kind of things. 80 00:04:31,011 --> 00:04:35,564 Listen, there's principles in Scripture on borrowing, 81 00:04:35,564 --> 00:04:38,637 and one of the things is if you borrow 82 00:04:38,637 --> 00:04:41,309 and you don't restore, return, 83 00:04:41,309 --> 00:04:43,843 or even make full restitution 84 00:04:43,843 --> 00:04:45,513 if the thing you borrow is not able 85 00:04:45,513 --> 00:04:47,492 to be returned in the same condition 86 00:04:47,492 --> 00:04:49,225 in which you borrowed it from, 87 00:04:49,225 --> 00:04:51,562 you know who you're like? 88 00:04:51,562 --> 00:04:53,682 You're like the wicked. 89 00:04:53,682 --> 00:04:56,456 That's what the wicked do. 90 00:04:56,456 --> 00:04:59,027 Righteous people don't do that. 91 00:04:59,027 --> 00:05:00,913 Righteous people borrow 92 00:05:00,913 --> 00:05:03,270 and they pay back again. 93 00:05:03,270 --> 00:05:04,863 And I think one of the texts 94 00:05:04,863 --> 00:05:06,756 that's very similar to this 95 00:05:06,756 --> 00:05:12,469 is the man who ascends the hill of the Lord. 96 00:05:12,469 --> 00:05:14,797 And he swears to his own hurt 97 00:05:14,797 --> 00:05:16,317 and he changes not, 98 00:05:16,317 --> 00:05:17,922 and that's in Psalm 15. 99 00:05:17,922 --> 00:05:20,635 And he swears to his own hurt 100 00:05:20,635 --> 00:05:21,931 and changes not. 101 00:05:21,931 --> 00:05:25,424 In other words, you sign a contract. 102 00:05:25,424 --> 00:05:26,555 You know what? 103 00:05:26,555 --> 00:05:29,113 Nobody takes out a student loan without a signature. 104 00:05:29,113 --> 00:05:33,687 Nobody takes out a credit card without some kind of signature, 105 00:05:33,687 --> 00:05:35,774 or authorization. 106 00:05:35,774 --> 00:05:39,392 If you do that, 107 00:05:39,392 --> 00:05:42,537 you're swearing to your own hurt. 108 00:05:42,537 --> 00:05:46,189 What you're doing is you're giving your name - 109 00:05:46,189 --> 00:05:48,452 you're giving your word. 110 00:05:48,452 --> 00:05:50,189 That's the idea behind swearing. 111 00:05:50,189 --> 00:05:54,044 It comes to your own hurt 112 00:05:54,044 --> 00:05:55,887 when it doesn't turn out the way 113 00:05:55,887 --> 00:05:58,137 you expected it to. 114 00:05:58,137 --> 00:06:00,501 By your own hurt, it's like, 115 00:06:00,501 --> 00:06:04,376 ok, this isn't in my best interest anymore. 116 00:06:04,376 --> 00:06:05,587 Yeah, but the problem is 117 00:06:05,587 --> 00:06:08,963 you sign the mortgage. 118 00:06:08,963 --> 00:06:13,889 The problem is you sign for that cell phone service. 119 00:06:13,889 --> 00:06:16,578 You see, that's the issue. 120 00:06:16,578 --> 00:06:20,366 Christians who get cell phones 121 00:06:20,366 --> 00:06:22,445 and then just bail 122 00:06:22,445 --> 00:06:26,185 and run to another phone provider - 123 00:06:26,185 --> 00:06:28,111 that's wicked. 124 00:06:28,111 --> 00:06:31,320 You signed up for that. 125 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,197 You say, but I got all these charges 126 00:06:33,197 --> 00:06:34,805 and I couldn't pay for them. 127 00:06:34,805 --> 00:06:37,420 Yeah, that's to your own hurt, 128 00:06:37,420 --> 00:06:40,276 but you gave your word in the beginning. 129 00:06:40,276 --> 00:06:43,645 You entered into a contract with them. 130 00:06:43,645 --> 00:06:46,040 You have a responsibility. 131 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:50,452 Now look, if I am the lender, 132 00:06:50,452 --> 00:06:52,673 I'm free anytime to say 133 00:06:52,673 --> 00:06:54,899 you're released from the debt. 134 00:06:54,899 --> 00:06:57,421 In fact, under the Old Testament, 135 00:06:57,421 --> 00:07:00,606 do you know how often debts were forgiven? 136 00:07:00,606 --> 00:07:02,173 (From the room:) every 7 years. 137 00:07:02,173 --> 00:07:03,919 Tim: They were supposed to be. 138 00:07:03,919 --> 00:07:06,414 Now, that's how God set it up, 139 00:07:06,414 --> 00:07:08,512 that nobody would be in debt 140 00:07:08,512 --> 00:07:10,019 longer than 7 years. 141 00:07:10,019 --> 00:07:11,894 Can you imagine if we all of a sudden 142 00:07:11,894 --> 00:07:15,543 instituted that today? 143 00:07:15,543 --> 00:07:17,647 It'd be good. 144 00:07:17,647 --> 00:07:21,642 I mean, our government would be helped big time. 145 00:07:21,642 --> 00:07:24,502 But nobody would loan to them anymore 146 00:07:24,502 --> 00:07:30,442 which would be good. 147 00:07:30,442 --> 00:07:33,534 Our federal government is wicked 148 00:07:33,534 --> 00:07:35,558 because they borrow that which they know 149 00:07:35,558 --> 00:07:37,677 they can never pay back again. 150 00:07:37,677 --> 00:07:39,031 They're wicked. 151 00:07:39,031 --> 00:07:41,390 The way our government operates 152 00:07:41,390 --> 00:07:44,653 is criminal and crooked. 153 00:07:44,653 --> 00:07:47,818 Running up the national debt the way they do, 154 00:07:47,818 --> 00:07:51,360 that's just wicked, corrupt, greedy men 155 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,681 ruling this country. 156 00:07:53,681 --> 00:07:56,311 But Christians aren't supposed to be like that. 157 00:07:56,311 --> 00:08:01,042 Now look, if I owe somebody something - 158 00:08:01,042 --> 00:08:04,724 like let's say I smash the mower deck. 159 00:08:04,724 --> 00:08:06,280 And I take it back to Glenn 160 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,022 and Glenn says, brother, 161 00:08:08,022 --> 00:08:09,852 don't worry about it. 162 00:08:09,852 --> 00:08:14,544 That mower - I was going to get rid of it anyway. 163 00:08:14,544 --> 00:08:17,173 I don't care about it. Don't worry about it. 164 00:08:17,173 --> 00:08:18,993 Could he do that? 165 00:08:18,993 --> 00:08:20,453 Would I be off the hook? 166 00:08:20,453 --> 00:08:24,315 Yeah. Yeah, if he forgives the debt. 167 00:08:24,315 --> 00:08:28,854 I would say this, if somebody writes off debt. 168 00:08:28,854 --> 00:08:30,582 She's wondering, I think, 169 00:08:30,582 --> 00:08:34,040 should I still pay it? 170 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,524 My thing would be this. 171 00:08:37,524 --> 00:08:40,014 Have I coerced somebody 172 00:08:40,014 --> 00:08:42,318 or twisted their arm 173 00:08:42,318 --> 00:08:44,617 to forgive my debt? 174 00:08:44,617 --> 00:08:46,894 Because I don't want to be that person. 175 00:08:46,894 --> 00:08:49,213 In other words, 176 00:08:49,213 --> 00:08:53,110 I've defaulted on it, 177 00:08:53,110 --> 00:08:54,737 and it's been so long - 178 00:08:54,737 --> 00:08:59,027 or I defaulted on it to the point where 179 00:08:59,027 --> 00:09:02,986 they just recognize they weren't going to get anything, 180 00:09:02,986 --> 00:09:06,074 but I pretty much forced them into that position 181 00:09:06,074 --> 00:09:10,339 by my own lack of responsibility. 182 00:09:10,339 --> 00:09:12,349 Or is it valid? 183 00:09:12,349 --> 00:09:16,362 I mean, did somebody say, 184 00:09:16,362 --> 00:09:20,215 we recognize that you've got 185 00:09:20,215 --> 00:09:22,538 some financial issues and we're going to 186 00:09:22,538 --> 00:09:24,690 forgive this debt? 187 00:09:24,690 --> 00:09:26,455 We had a situation - 188 00:09:26,455 --> 00:09:29,078 no health insurance, 189 00:09:29,078 --> 00:09:33,485 Santa Rosa Children's Hospital 190 00:09:33,485 --> 00:09:37,001 ran up $7,000 or $8,000 of debt just like that 191 00:09:37,001 --> 00:09:38,984 when Joy had pneumonia. 192 00:09:38,984 --> 00:09:41,580 And we went in and they forgave it. 193 00:09:41,580 --> 00:09:42,701 They forgave it. 194 00:09:42,701 --> 00:09:44,968 They wiped the book clean. 195 00:09:44,968 --> 00:09:46,537 Well, I didn't feel like, 196 00:09:46,537 --> 00:09:47,815 oh, well, the wicked - 197 00:09:47,815 --> 00:09:51,756 they borrow and they don't pay back, 198 00:09:51,756 --> 00:09:53,890 so I've got to pay it nevertheless! 199 00:09:53,890 --> 00:09:55,133 No, they forgave it. 200 00:09:55,133 --> 00:09:58,078 That's ok. 201 00:09:58,078 --> 00:10:01,692 Let's think about debt. 202 00:10:01,692 --> 00:10:04,198 Sometimes you get people like George Mueller, 203 00:10:04,198 --> 00:10:06,071 Hudson Taylor, 204 00:10:06,071 --> 00:10:11,134 they take the text Romans 13:8 - 205 00:10:11,134 --> 00:10:15,083 "Owe no man anything except to love one another," - 206 00:10:15,083 --> 00:10:19,234 they take that as forbidding all debt. 207 00:10:19,234 --> 00:10:24,629 The problem is that it's not consistent 208 00:10:24,629 --> 00:10:28,552 with the Greek verb. 209 00:10:28,552 --> 00:10:33,891 The idea there is keep on (incomplete thought). 210 00:10:33,891 --> 00:10:39,869 Don't keep owing somebody. 211 00:10:39,869 --> 00:10:42,522 And in fact, if you look at verse 7 - 212 00:10:42,522 --> 00:10:43,742 why don't we turn there? 213 00:10:43,742 --> 00:10:45,886 If you look at v. 7, 214 00:10:45,886 --> 00:10:50,285 what he's not saying is never get in a place 215 00:10:50,285 --> 00:10:51,736 where you owe somebody. 216 00:10:51,736 --> 00:10:53,656 He's assuming that living in this life, 217 00:10:53,656 --> 00:10:56,540 you will get in a place where you owe people. 218 00:10:56,540 --> 00:10:58,952 And the idea isn't that you never 219 00:10:58,952 --> 00:11:00,801 get to where you owe somebody. 220 00:11:00,801 --> 00:11:04,682 The issue is keep on owing nobody anything. 221 00:11:04,682 --> 00:11:06,130 Pay what you owe. 222 00:11:06,130 --> 00:11:08,365 And if I'm under an obligation 223 00:11:08,365 --> 00:11:12,468 to pay so much every month on my mortgage, 224 00:11:12,468 --> 00:11:14,203 well, then I need to pay it. 225 00:11:14,203 --> 00:11:15,817 I need to be good to my word. 226 00:11:15,817 --> 00:11:17,805 That was the arrangement. 227 00:11:17,805 --> 00:11:21,016 But you can see - somebody read v. 7. 228 00:11:21,016 --> 00:11:23,068 "Pay to all what is owed to them: 229 00:11:23,068 --> 00:11:24,780 taxes to whom taxes are owed, 230 00:11:24,780 --> 00:11:27,583 revenue to whom revenue is owed, 231 00:11:27,583 --> 00:11:29,594 respect to whom respect is owed, 232 00:11:29,594 --> 00:11:31,358 honor to whom honor is owed." 233 00:11:31,358 --> 00:11:34,608 Tim: Yeah, and you know how we talk about 234 00:11:34,608 --> 00:11:38,560 elders being worthy of double honor. 235 00:11:38,560 --> 00:11:44,504 That is a financial terminology. 236 00:11:44,504 --> 00:11:46,302 That has to do with money. 237 00:11:46,302 --> 00:11:48,452 And the idea here is 238 00:11:48,452 --> 00:11:50,826 pay what you owe. 239 00:11:50,826 --> 00:11:52,646 Pay it as you owe it. 240 00:11:52,646 --> 00:11:54,460 It's not the idea that you simply 241 00:11:54,460 --> 00:11:56,887 can never enter into some kind of debt. 242 00:11:56,887 --> 00:11:58,791 Now, we know this, 243 00:11:58,791 --> 00:12:04,191 there are two basic kinds of debt. 244 00:12:04,191 --> 00:12:06,524 There is a secured debt 245 00:12:06,524 --> 00:12:09,021 and there is an unsecured debt. 246 00:12:09,021 --> 00:12:11,597 Unsecured debt is like a student loan. 247 00:12:11,597 --> 00:12:13,394 Very risky. 248 00:12:13,394 --> 00:12:15,114 Here's the thing, 249 00:12:15,114 --> 00:12:17,553 you get into massive debt 250 00:12:17,553 --> 00:12:20,265 through student loans - 251 00:12:20,265 --> 00:12:22,682 say you're in debt $100,000. 252 00:12:22,682 --> 00:12:24,296 That's an unsecured loan, 253 00:12:24,296 --> 00:12:27,432 which means there's no asset behind it. 254 00:12:27,432 --> 00:12:34,381 If you don't finish your degree, 255 00:12:34,381 --> 00:12:37,079 you've got a lot of wasted debt there. 256 00:12:37,079 --> 00:12:38,947 Or, let's say you do finish, 257 00:12:38,947 --> 00:12:41,048 but then you can't get a job. 258 00:12:41,048 --> 00:12:43,512 It's very risky. 259 00:12:43,512 --> 00:12:44,986 I don't want any of my children 260 00:12:44,986 --> 00:12:48,558 getting into debt over college. 261 00:12:48,558 --> 00:12:49,956 You can work. 262 00:12:49,956 --> 00:12:54,604 Parents can help and you can work. 263 00:12:54,604 --> 00:12:56,899 Or maybe you think the parents 264 00:12:56,899 --> 00:12:58,375 shouldn't help at all. 265 00:12:58,375 --> 00:13:01,614 The kids can work. 266 00:13:01,614 --> 00:13:03,238 Then there's secure debt, 267 00:13:03,238 --> 00:13:05,024 like buying a home. 268 00:13:05,024 --> 00:13:07,071 Stewardship-wise, 269 00:13:07,071 --> 00:13:09,044 I think it's wiser to buy a home 270 00:13:09,044 --> 00:13:10,951 than to rent your whole life. 271 00:13:10,951 --> 00:13:12,598 I believe there's wisdom in that. 272 00:13:12,598 --> 00:13:15,108 We paid off this house in six years, 273 00:13:15,108 --> 00:13:18,661 and now all it really costs to live here 274 00:13:18,661 --> 00:13:20,983 that's different from renting 275 00:13:20,983 --> 00:13:23,414 is I pay property taxes. 276 00:13:23,414 --> 00:13:26,732 I mean, that's pretty cheap living. 277 00:13:26,732 --> 00:13:29,865 And if I die, Ruby has a paid for home. 278 00:13:29,865 --> 00:13:31,661 The beauty in Texas, 279 00:13:31,661 --> 00:13:34,304 they can never take your homestead away 280 00:13:34,304 --> 00:13:36,338 because you don't pay property taxes. 281 00:13:36,338 --> 00:13:38,459 So Ruby could never pay property taxes 282 00:13:38,459 --> 00:13:39,807 on this the rest of her life 283 00:13:39,807 --> 00:13:41,480 and they wouldn't take it away. 284 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,254 Now, those property taxes would be - 285 00:13:43,254 --> 00:13:45,786 there would be a lien put against the home 286 00:13:45,786 --> 00:13:47,379 so that whenever it did get sold, 287 00:13:47,379 --> 00:13:51,490 eventually all that would be recollected, 288 00:13:51,490 --> 00:13:53,377 but anyway. 289 00:13:53,377 --> 00:13:57,059 The big issue in all of this is that 290 00:13:57,059 --> 00:14:03,629 if we borrow, we pay what's owed. 291 00:14:03,629 --> 00:14:05,816 If we borrow, we return. 292 00:14:05,816 --> 00:14:07,862 If we borrow, we make sure 293 00:14:07,862 --> 00:14:12,544 people get back what we borrowed from them. 294 00:14:12,544 --> 00:14:14,811 We're not looking for ways out. 295 00:14:14,811 --> 00:14:18,016 You get a traffic ticket? Pay it. 296 00:14:18,016 --> 00:14:20,986 You've got old phone debt? You pay it. 297 00:14:20,986 --> 00:14:24,354 Now look, that doesn't mean you can't call 298 00:14:24,354 --> 00:14:27,339 the company. 299 00:14:27,339 --> 00:14:28,786 In fact, you need to. 300 00:14:28,786 --> 00:14:30,373 If you get in a situation 301 00:14:30,373 --> 00:14:31,755 where you can't pay, 302 00:14:31,755 --> 00:14:34,360 you need to communicate with the people 303 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,056 you can't pay. 304 00:14:36,056 --> 00:14:37,922 If you're under an obligation, 305 00:14:37,922 --> 00:14:41,126 you need to be good to your word. 306 00:14:41,126 --> 00:14:43,111 Look, this is integrity. 307 00:14:43,111 --> 00:14:44,707 When you owe somebody something, 308 00:14:44,707 --> 00:14:46,172 and you can't make a payment, 309 00:14:46,172 --> 00:14:48,055 and you just disappear, 310 00:14:48,055 --> 00:14:51,174 and you avoid their phone calls, 311 00:14:51,174 --> 00:14:52,287 what's that? 312 00:14:52,287 --> 00:14:53,802 That's what the world does. 313 00:14:53,802 --> 00:14:55,490 That's not being honest 314 00:14:55,490 --> 00:14:56,809 and full of integrity 315 00:14:56,809 --> 00:14:58,178 and uprightness. 316 00:14:58,178 --> 00:15:01,127 That's acting like the wicked. 317 00:15:01,127 --> 00:15:02,369 What you want to do 318 00:15:02,369 --> 00:15:03,662 is you want to communicate. 319 00:15:03,662 --> 00:15:04,544 And you know what? 320 00:15:04,544 --> 00:15:06,255 If there's a place to call a company 321 00:15:06,255 --> 00:15:11,769 and say look, you guys charged me all this 322 00:15:11,769 --> 00:15:13,807 for medical bills 323 00:15:13,807 --> 00:15:17,992 and perhaps I can pay one lump sum 324 00:15:17,992 --> 00:15:21,274 and you guys want $8,000 from me. 325 00:15:21,274 --> 00:15:25,467 Well, how about if I pay $3,000 right now 326 00:15:25,467 --> 00:15:27,797 and we're good? 327 00:15:27,797 --> 00:15:29,842 If they say ok, well ok. 328 00:15:29,842 --> 00:15:33,706 Negotiating's not bad. 329 00:15:33,706 --> 00:15:35,962 Now you'd be twisting their arm if you say 330 00:15:35,962 --> 00:15:39,339 look I'm not paying it. 331 00:15:39,339 --> 00:15:42,202 Unless you let me get by with $2,000 332 00:15:42,202 --> 00:15:43,997 I'm not paying it. 333 00:15:43,997 --> 00:15:46,315 Well, there's not integrity in that 334 00:15:46,315 --> 00:15:48,419 because all you're doing is coercing them. 335 00:15:48,419 --> 00:15:50,156 You're seeking to twist their arm. 336 00:15:50,156 --> 00:15:51,805 You're seeking to manipulate them. 337 00:15:51,805 --> 00:15:53,563 But if they're willing to do that, 338 00:15:53,563 --> 00:15:54,922 then it's good. 339 00:15:54,922 --> 00:15:56,383 Just be people of honesty. 340 00:15:56,383 --> 00:15:58,153 Be people of integrity. 341 00:15:58,153 --> 00:16:00,265 You know what? 342 00:16:00,265 --> 00:16:02,740 I recognize that you're not going to have 343 00:16:02,740 --> 00:16:07,742 a credit score if you simply don't borrow anything. 344 00:16:07,742 --> 00:16:10,972 But, Christians with poor credit scores 345 00:16:10,972 --> 00:16:13,530 because you've defaulted on different things 346 00:16:13,530 --> 00:16:16,535 and you've missed paying bills 347 00:16:16,535 --> 00:16:18,545 and you haven't been faithful 348 00:16:18,545 --> 00:16:22,304 and you've got collection agencies against you... 349 00:16:22,304 --> 00:16:23,907 Do you know one of the things 350 00:16:23,907 --> 00:16:26,381 that we're told to discipline people 351 00:16:26,381 --> 00:16:29,779 out of the church for is greed? 352 00:16:29,779 --> 00:16:32,398 And oftentimes, that's exactly what it comes down to. 353 00:16:32,398 --> 00:16:35,683 People want stuff they can't afford. 354 00:16:35,683 --> 00:16:38,313 (incomplete thought) 355 00:16:38,313 --> 00:16:40,508 People who have outstanding ongoing 356 00:16:40,508 --> 00:16:42,907 credit card debt is probably 357 00:16:42,907 --> 00:16:46,227 a sufficient amount of demonstration of greed 358 00:16:46,227 --> 00:16:48,505 that people ought to be put out of the church, 359 00:16:48,505 --> 00:16:53,345 if we were dealing faithfully with 1 Corinthians 5, 360 00:16:53,345 --> 00:16:56,048 and what greed really is. 361 00:16:56,048 --> 00:16:57,651 And I recognize some people, 362 00:16:57,651 --> 00:16:59,774 they amass that debt when they're lost 363 00:16:59,774 --> 00:17:00,945 and then they get saved. 364 00:17:00,945 --> 00:17:02,728 That's where I was. I had this debt. 365 00:17:02,728 --> 00:17:03,874 I got saved. 366 00:17:03,874 --> 00:17:05,737 And then for the first time in my life, 367 00:17:05,737 --> 00:17:07,475 I really began looking at finances 368 00:17:07,475 --> 00:17:10,350 through biblical lenses and sought 369 00:17:10,350 --> 00:17:12,260 in the years after that to try to get 370 00:17:12,260 --> 00:17:14,651 everything squared. 371 00:17:14,651 --> 00:17:17,208 And one of the things was restitution. 372 00:17:17,208 --> 00:17:19,686 Just looking at things I took, 373 00:17:19,686 --> 00:17:22,655 I stole, I borrowed and never gave back, 374 00:17:22,655 --> 00:17:25,108 or I destroyed and seeking to make 375 00:17:25,108 --> 00:17:28,954 restitution there. 376 00:17:28,954 --> 00:17:30,516 Any other thoughts on this? 377 00:17:30,516 --> 00:17:31,411 (from the room) 378 00:17:31,411 --> 00:17:33,536 I remember when I had to finish college 379 00:17:33,536 --> 00:17:35,872 and I had no debt for the college I attended, 380 00:17:35,872 --> 00:17:37,919 but my family did help me out 381 00:17:37,919 --> 00:17:39,964 and now they were asking for it back, 382 00:17:39,964 --> 00:17:44,307 I remember I was feeling like the Proverbs 21:7 383 00:17:44,307 --> 00:17:48,698 where it says that the borrower is a slave to the lender. 384 00:17:48,698 --> 00:17:53,598 And I just felt like they had some control over me 385 00:17:53,598 --> 00:17:57,304 because I had a loan that wasn't paid back. 386 00:17:57,304 --> 00:18:00,617 (unintelligible) 387 00:18:00,617 --> 00:18:07,248 I just felt like a slave to them. 388 00:18:07,248 --> 00:18:09,422 Tim: And there's reality in that. 389 00:18:09,422 --> 00:18:14,957 The borrower is servant to the lender. 390 00:18:14,957 --> 00:18:18,904 Your life is being controlled 391 00:18:18,904 --> 00:18:21,336 when you're in debt. 392 00:18:21,336 --> 00:18:23,264 I mean, you're in a place where 393 00:18:23,264 --> 00:18:26,304 you have to maintain a job. 394 00:18:26,304 --> 00:18:28,062 You have to maintain an income. 395 00:18:28,062 --> 00:18:30,935 There's tremendous freedom 396 00:18:30,935 --> 00:18:35,674 when everything is paid 397 00:18:35,674 --> 00:18:40,878 and you don't owe anybody anything. 398 00:18:40,878 --> 00:18:44,877 Because you're very free 399 00:18:44,877 --> 00:18:56,043 to pack up and go. 400 00:18:56,043 --> 00:18:58,072 You're free to make a lot of decisions 401 00:18:58,072 --> 00:18:59,680 in your life that you would not 402 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:04,636 otherwise be able to make. 403 00:19:04,636 --> 00:19:07,739 The truth is that if somebody 404 00:19:07,739 --> 00:19:10,861 has large debt, and they're feeling like 405 00:19:10,861 --> 00:19:12,562 the Lord is really pressing them 406 00:19:12,562 --> 00:19:14,210 to go to the mission field, 407 00:19:14,210 --> 00:19:15,549 how could they do that? 408 00:19:15,549 --> 00:19:17,054 How could they do that? 409 00:19:17,054 --> 00:19:23,204 They can't. 410 00:19:23,204 --> 00:19:29,719 But you see if you have a secured debt 411 00:19:29,719 --> 00:19:31,730 where you actually have an asset, 412 00:19:31,730 --> 00:19:34,202 like with a house, 413 00:19:34,202 --> 00:19:38,843 even if I owed $70,000 on this house, 414 00:19:38,843 --> 00:19:40,863 you see because I actually have an asset 415 00:19:40,863 --> 00:19:43,342 behind what I borrowed, 416 00:19:43,342 --> 00:19:45,073 I could sell the house 417 00:19:45,073 --> 00:19:46,951 and I'm still free to go 418 00:19:46,951 --> 00:19:50,090 and do what I want to do. 419 00:19:50,090 --> 00:19:52,499 Because there's this asset here. 420 00:19:52,499 --> 00:19:54,400 I could sell it. 421 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,053 But unsecured debt like student loans, 422 00:19:57,053 --> 00:20:02,492 like credit cards - 423 00:20:02,492 --> 00:20:04,170 don't go there. 424 00:20:04,170 --> 00:20:05,486 Don't go there at all. 425 00:20:05,486 --> 00:20:06,848 Why do you need to go there? 426 00:20:06,848 --> 00:20:08,317 Basically what you're saying 427 00:20:08,317 --> 00:20:11,219 is I need a lifestyle beyond what 428 00:20:11,219 --> 00:20:14,647 God is providing for. 429 00:20:14,647 --> 00:20:16,216 Don't go there. 430 00:20:16,216 --> 00:20:19,517 Don't be stupid when it comes to cars. 431 00:20:19,517 --> 00:20:20,303 (from the room) 432 00:20:20,303 --> 00:20:25,554 Can I just clarify Proverbs 22? Not 21. 433 00:20:25,554 --> 00:20:28,739 Tim: Anyways, we're not getting into cars. 434 00:20:28,739 --> 00:20:31,470 Right, we did one on that.