1 00:00:05,188 --> 00:00:06,846 "Thank you for your ministry. 2 00:00:06,846 --> 00:00:09,937 I've been watching the YouTube Q&A videos 3 00:00:09,937 --> 00:00:15,876 and I would like to direct a question. 4 00:00:15,876 --> 00:00:20,217 I am a 25 year old virgin 5 00:00:20,217 --> 00:00:23,618 and a born again Christian. 6 00:00:23,618 --> 00:00:27,577 I was raised in a strict, sheltered, 7 00:00:27,577 --> 00:00:30,907 and naive household which made me 8 00:00:30,907 --> 00:00:35,437 despise premarital sex even before I was saved. 9 00:00:35,437 --> 00:00:39,567 I haven't had a sexually sinful past. 10 00:00:39,567 --> 00:00:41,828 I'm in no way, shape, or form trying to 11 00:00:41,828 --> 00:00:43,526 brag about my works, 12 00:00:43,526 --> 00:00:48,338 and I acknowledge that my sheer existence was sinful. 13 00:00:48,338 --> 00:00:51,717 I might not have had a bad past like others, 14 00:00:51,717 --> 00:00:54,837 but I acknowledge that I deserve to go to hell 15 00:00:54,837 --> 00:00:58,767 and that I'm only saved by the grace of God. 16 00:00:58,767 --> 00:01:04,363 From experience, I have observed..." 17 00:01:04,363 --> 00:01:06,430 Now listen to this: 18 00:01:06,430 --> 00:01:11,378 "From experience, I have observed 19 00:01:11,378 --> 00:01:16,107 that the most mature Christians 20 00:01:16,107 --> 00:01:18,717 are the ones that have had 21 00:01:18,717 --> 00:01:24,139 a very immoral past. 22 00:01:24,139 --> 00:01:29,848 This is backed up by the verse in Luke 7:47." 23 00:01:29,848 --> 00:01:31,306 Somebody look that up. 24 00:01:31,306 --> 00:01:40,026 Luke 7:47. 25 00:01:40,026 --> 00:01:42,497 Whoever gets that, go ahead and read it. 26 00:01:42,497 --> 00:01:44,939 "Therefore, I tell you, her sins, 27 00:01:44,939 --> 00:01:47,248 which are many are forgiven, 28 00:01:47,248 --> 00:01:49,087 for she loved much. 29 00:01:49,087 --> 00:01:53,078 But he who is forgiven little loves little." 30 00:01:53,078 --> 00:01:55,057 Okay, let's think about that. 31 00:01:55,057 --> 00:02:01,095 Now he's making this observation: 32 00:02:01,095 --> 00:02:03,607 "I've observed that the most mature Christians 33 00:02:03,607 --> 00:02:06,818 are the ones that have had a very immoral past." 34 00:02:06,818 --> 00:02:09,857 And he says not only from his experience - 35 00:02:09,857 --> 00:02:14,097 he says my experience is backed up by Scripture. 36 00:02:14,097 --> 00:02:20,886 And he refers to that text right there. 37 00:02:20,886 --> 00:02:22,036 Then he goes on to say, 38 00:02:22,036 --> 00:02:23,837 "The more you have sinned, 39 00:02:23,837 --> 00:02:25,268 the more you're forgiven. 40 00:02:25,268 --> 00:02:26,467 The more you're forgiven, 41 00:02:26,467 --> 00:02:27,588 the more you love God, 42 00:02:27,588 --> 00:02:30,697 and therefore, the more mature you become. 43 00:02:30,697 --> 00:02:34,188 I've been dealing with a cloud over my head regarding this. 44 00:02:34,188 --> 00:02:36,577 I know that sin is wrong no matter what, 45 00:02:36,577 --> 00:02:39,428 but sometimes I feel like being sexually active 46 00:02:39,428 --> 00:02:41,246 before I was saved 47 00:02:41,246 --> 00:02:46,228 would have put me in a better spiritual position now." 48 00:02:46,228 --> 00:02:50,286 Now, listen, thankfully 49 00:02:50,286 --> 00:02:54,426 I was looking for Bethan Lloyd-Jones 50 00:02:54,426 --> 00:02:57,096 and I picked up this book and I opened it up 51 00:02:57,096 --> 00:02:58,987 and bang there it was. 52 00:02:58,987 --> 00:03:02,079 Don't you love when that happens? 53 00:03:02,079 --> 00:03:05,447 She says, "In those early years at Aberavon, 54 00:03:05,447 --> 00:03:08,448 I rejoiced to see men and women converted. 55 00:03:08,448 --> 00:03:11,057 Drunkards, evil livers, all manner 56 00:03:11,057 --> 00:03:13,549 of types and backgrounds 57 00:03:13,549 --> 00:03:15,558 and all different ages..." 58 00:03:15,558 --> 00:03:20,639 Now this is Martyn Lloyd-Jones' wife. 59 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,909 "I rejoiced to see them. 60 00:03:23,909 --> 00:03:27,958 I envied them 61 00:03:27,958 --> 00:03:29,928 and sometimes wished 62 00:03:29,928 --> 00:03:32,608 when I saw their radiant faces 63 00:03:32,608 --> 00:03:34,707 and changed lives 64 00:03:34,707 --> 00:03:37,456 that I had been a drunkard or worse, 65 00:03:37,456 --> 00:03:41,028 so that I could be converted. 66 00:03:41,028 --> 00:03:44,187 I never imagined that I needed to be converted 67 00:03:44,187 --> 00:03:46,156 having always been a Christian, 68 00:03:46,156 --> 00:03:49,387 or that I could get any more than I had already. 69 00:03:49,387 --> 00:03:51,786 Those first two years, God graciously used 70 00:03:51,786 --> 00:03:55,046 Martyn's morning sermons to open my eyes 71 00:03:55,046 --> 00:03:57,997 and to show me my self and my needs. 72 00:03:57,997 --> 00:04:01,168 I came to know my sins forgiven 73 00:04:01,168 --> 00:04:05,227 and the peace of God in my own heart." 74 00:04:05,227 --> 00:04:06,827 That has always struck me 75 00:04:06,827 --> 00:04:08,220 about Bethan Lloyd-Jones, 76 00:04:08,220 --> 00:04:10,217 that she desired that. 77 00:04:10,217 --> 00:04:12,129 There's more accounts. 78 00:04:12,129 --> 00:04:13,937 (Incomplete thought) 79 00:04:13,937 --> 00:04:16,649 Did you read both volumes? 80 00:04:16,649 --> 00:04:19,008 Is that mentioned in there? 81 00:04:19,008 --> 00:04:20,797 James: I remember hearing about it 82 00:04:20,797 --> 00:04:22,547 and that's the only thing I've read, 83 00:04:22,547 --> 00:04:23,677 so it must be there. 84 00:04:23,677 --> 00:04:25,759 Tim: I think it's mentioned there too. 85 00:04:25,759 --> 00:04:27,169 That's two whole volumes. 86 00:04:27,169 --> 00:04:28,309 (Incomplete thought) 87 00:04:28,309 --> 00:04:31,007 This was actually written by her. 88 00:04:31,007 --> 00:04:35,368 And so I thought I might find it here more quickly. 89 00:04:35,368 --> 00:04:37,528 It's a lot smaller as well. 90 00:04:37,528 --> 00:04:40,398 So what do you all think? 91 00:04:40,398 --> 00:04:44,758 I mean, he's going to that text 92 00:04:44,758 --> 00:04:50,297 about this woman who's been saved from much. 93 00:04:50,297 --> 00:04:52,218 What do you do? What do you tell him? 94 00:04:52,218 --> 00:04:55,638 Is that flawed thinking? 95 00:04:55,638 --> 00:05:02,017 I mean, listen, just for starters, 96 00:05:02,017 --> 00:05:07,789 (incomplete thought) 97 00:05:07,789 --> 00:05:12,377 I personally have recognized 98 00:05:12,377 --> 00:05:17,647 that men like Martyn Lloyd-Jones, 99 00:05:17,647 --> 00:05:27,007 John MacArthur, John Piper... 100 00:05:27,007 --> 00:05:29,186 James: Steve Lawson? 101 00:05:29,186 --> 00:05:31,427 Tim: I don't know Steve Lawson's past, 102 00:05:31,427 --> 00:05:34,436 (incomplete thought). 103 00:05:34,436 --> 00:05:40,606 Oh, the other one, Charles Spurgeon - 104 00:05:40,606 --> 00:05:43,276 you know, most of those guys 105 00:05:43,276 --> 00:05:55,797 came from families of multiple generations of pastors. 106 00:05:55,797 --> 00:05:58,577 Certainly, MacArthur did. 107 00:05:58,577 --> 00:06:01,228 MacArthur's dad was a pastor. 108 00:06:01,228 --> 00:06:04,287 Piper's father was an evangelist. 109 00:06:04,287 --> 00:06:07,738 Spurgeon's father and grandfather were both pastors. 110 00:06:07,738 --> 00:06:12,687 And they grew up in relatively moral settings. 111 00:06:12,687 --> 00:06:16,998 And they weren't one of these "pastor's kids" 112 00:06:16,998 --> 00:06:22,405 who ran off into all manner of wild living. 113 00:06:22,405 --> 00:06:25,599 I mean, I think you can come up 114 00:06:25,599 --> 00:06:28,347 with your examples where, yeah, 115 00:06:28,347 --> 00:06:30,588 there were preachers who have been greatly used 116 00:06:30,588 --> 00:06:33,549 and you can hear about Paul Washer's past. 117 00:06:33,549 --> 00:06:38,848 But is that the rule? Is that our experience? 118 00:06:38,848 --> 00:06:41,377 And does that text - 119 00:06:41,377 --> 00:06:43,187 what do you do with that text? 120 00:06:43,187 --> 00:06:45,586 You see how he's using it. 121 00:06:45,586 --> 00:06:50,188 Do you think his reasoning is flawed? 122 00:06:50,188 --> 00:06:55,028 And if so, how? 123 00:06:55,028 --> 00:06:56,148 (from the room) 124 00:06:56,148 --> 00:06:58,758 What about the text where Jesus says 125 00:06:58,758 --> 00:07:01,898 He did not come for those who are righteous, 126 00:07:01,898 --> 00:07:05,817 but those who are sick? 127 00:07:05,817 --> 00:07:12,117 Tim: I think that's a good text. 128 00:07:12,117 --> 00:07:14,967 Let me ask you this. 129 00:07:14,967 --> 00:07:16,618 I think that's a tremendous text 130 00:07:16,618 --> 00:07:18,088 and very applicable to this, 131 00:07:18,088 --> 00:07:21,099 but let me ask you this. 132 00:07:21,099 --> 00:07:23,027 Jesus often said things 133 00:07:23,027 --> 00:07:25,438 in very interesting ways. 134 00:07:25,438 --> 00:07:27,118 He often said things in ways 135 00:07:27,118 --> 00:07:30,019 we wouldn't say them. 136 00:07:30,019 --> 00:07:33,307 Because if you're Jesus and you're sitting 137 00:07:33,307 --> 00:07:35,109 and you have this woman 138 00:07:35,109 --> 00:07:38,387 who is a great sinner - 139 00:07:38,387 --> 00:07:42,238 she was the one that was a woman of the city, right? 140 00:07:42,238 --> 00:07:45,339 If you have a woman of the city 141 00:07:45,339 --> 00:07:48,935 and she comes in and she obviously 142 00:07:48,935 --> 00:07:51,467 loves the Lord Jesus 143 00:07:51,467 --> 00:07:53,367 and she's doing what she does, 144 00:07:53,367 --> 00:07:55,176 and there seems to be every indication 145 00:07:55,176 --> 00:07:59,071 she's the real deal - she's genuine. 146 00:07:59,071 --> 00:08:00,646 She's broken. 147 00:08:00,646 --> 00:08:02,247 She's in glory now. 148 00:08:02,247 --> 00:08:04,139 But you know what's interesting? 149 00:08:04,139 --> 00:08:07,968 Who's He talking to? 150 00:08:07,968 --> 00:08:09,686 He's talking to Pharisees. 151 00:08:09,686 --> 00:08:15,488 And when He says 152 00:08:15,488 --> 00:08:17,678 those who have been forgiven little, 153 00:08:17,678 --> 00:08:20,615 they love little, 154 00:08:20,615 --> 00:08:23,427 who do you think He's got in mind? 155 00:08:23,427 --> 00:08:25,518 Is He talking about them? 156 00:08:25,518 --> 00:08:27,328 Is He talking about somebody else? 157 00:08:27,328 --> 00:08:29,986 (Incomplete thought) 158 00:08:29,986 --> 00:08:31,948 Is this hypothetical? 159 00:08:31,948 --> 00:08:38,239 Is it more a hyperbolic play on words? 160 00:08:38,239 --> 00:08:42,718 He's making a point? 161 00:08:42,718 --> 00:08:44,238 How do you read that? 162 00:08:44,238 --> 00:08:46,248 Because if you really think about it, 163 00:08:46,248 --> 00:08:50,487 is He actually saying to the Pharisee: 164 00:08:50,487 --> 00:08:52,668 Well, you're in the Kingdom 165 00:08:52,668 --> 00:08:54,704 just as much as she's in the Kingdom, 166 00:08:54,704 --> 00:08:56,917 but because she's been forgiven much 167 00:08:56,917 --> 00:08:58,717 and you've been forgiven little, 168 00:08:58,717 --> 00:09:00,166 therefore she loves much, 169 00:09:00,166 --> 00:09:02,889 and you're going to love little. 170 00:09:02,889 --> 00:09:07,448 You know, I don't think that's what's happening there. 171 00:09:07,448 --> 00:09:09,677 Because the reality is you come back 172 00:09:09,677 --> 00:09:13,436 to the text that R.L. just brought up. 173 00:09:13,436 --> 00:09:18,416 The reality is we're all sick 174 00:09:18,416 --> 00:09:20,317 and we're really sick. 175 00:09:20,317 --> 00:09:25,457 And even if you were self-righteously sick 176 00:09:25,457 --> 00:09:28,525 like Paul... 177 00:09:28,525 --> 00:09:32,417 see, in the end, was Paul a drunk? No. 178 00:09:32,417 --> 00:09:34,967 Was Paul sexually immoral? No. 179 00:09:34,967 --> 00:09:36,657 You know what he says? 180 00:09:36,657 --> 00:09:38,507 He says when it came to the law, 181 00:09:38,507 --> 00:09:41,986 I was blameless. 182 00:09:41,986 --> 00:09:45,366 And yet, he says I'm the chief of sinners. 183 00:09:45,366 --> 00:09:49,014 You know what I'm afraid of in this? 184 00:09:49,014 --> 00:09:54,917 That this guy doesn't have a proper self-perspective. 185 00:09:54,917 --> 00:09:58,895 I've heard Brother John Sytsma 186 00:09:58,895 --> 00:10:02,027 who comes out of religious background. 187 00:10:02,027 --> 00:10:09,187 But you know, he'll be the first to tell you - 188 00:10:09,187 --> 00:10:13,666 he senses the wickedness 189 00:10:13,666 --> 00:10:15,536 of religious self-righteousness 190 00:10:15,536 --> 00:10:18,466 because that's the background he came from. 191 00:10:18,466 --> 00:10:22,258 But you know, isn't it so often perceived 192 00:10:22,258 --> 00:10:23,958 that if you were a drunk, 193 00:10:23,958 --> 00:10:26,117 and if you were sexually immoral - 194 00:10:26,117 --> 00:10:30,026 because even Bethan fell into that thinking. 195 00:10:30,026 --> 00:10:32,377 Lots of people fall into that thinking. 196 00:10:32,377 --> 00:10:34,987 But you know what that is? 197 00:10:34,987 --> 00:10:38,407 It's wrong thinking. 198 00:10:38,407 --> 00:10:42,817 Now he's right in the sense that he says this: 199 00:10:42,817 --> 00:10:47,867 He said, "I might not have had 200 00:10:47,867 --> 00:10:49,567 as bad a past as others, 201 00:10:49,567 --> 00:10:51,907 but I acknowledge I deserve to go to hell." 202 00:10:51,907 --> 00:10:53,586 Well, see, he's right in the fact 203 00:10:53,586 --> 00:10:55,295 that he deserves to go to hell. 204 00:10:55,295 --> 00:10:58,027 He's wrong in the fact that he hasn't been as bad 205 00:10:58,027 --> 00:11:00,207 as other people. 206 00:11:00,207 --> 00:11:02,507 Think about it. 207 00:11:02,507 --> 00:11:08,759 He deserves to go to hell. 208 00:11:08,759 --> 00:11:10,568 I mean, the reality is, he's done 209 00:11:10,568 --> 00:11:12,798 such offensive things and such wicked things 210 00:11:12,798 --> 00:11:14,227 in the sight of God 211 00:11:14,227 --> 00:11:17,508 that God would put him in hell forever. 212 00:11:17,508 --> 00:11:22,497 We sometimes have these ideas... (incomplete thought). 213 00:11:22,497 --> 00:11:25,417 You know one of the problems? 214 00:11:25,417 --> 00:11:28,977 I think this stems largely 215 00:11:28,977 --> 00:11:32,308 from our man-centeredness. 216 00:11:32,308 --> 00:11:36,843 We tend to think of sins on that level 217 00:11:36,843 --> 00:11:38,607 as being the chief sins, 218 00:11:38,607 --> 00:11:41,747 but really, idolatry, 219 00:11:41,747 --> 00:11:44,350 those that most directly attack God, 220 00:11:44,350 --> 00:11:48,338 we often think of the ones on the human level. 221 00:11:48,338 --> 00:11:52,378 But the truth is 222 00:11:52,378 --> 00:11:55,027 when you think about the people 223 00:11:55,027 --> 00:11:56,318 to whom it was said 224 00:11:56,318 --> 00:11:58,018 it's going to be more tolerable 225 00:11:58,018 --> 00:12:01,099 for Sodom in the day of judgment 226 00:12:01,099 --> 00:12:02,768 than for those cities, 227 00:12:02,768 --> 00:12:06,097 there's no real indication that those cities 228 00:12:06,097 --> 00:12:07,758 were like Sodom and Gomorrah 229 00:12:07,758 --> 00:12:10,367 as far as sexuality 230 00:12:10,367 --> 00:12:12,457 and sexual immorality. 231 00:12:12,457 --> 00:12:14,827 You know what their crime was? 232 00:12:14,827 --> 00:12:18,819 They had light and they rejected it. 233 00:12:18,819 --> 00:12:23,378 You know, if we want to say anything 234 00:12:23,378 --> 00:12:25,618 about from Scripture 235 00:12:25,618 --> 00:12:31,116 who might be the most damnable, 236 00:12:31,116 --> 00:12:34,647 it's the moral religionist 237 00:12:34,647 --> 00:12:39,676 who's been exposed to truth 238 00:12:39,676 --> 00:12:41,397 and yet continued on not loving God 239 00:12:41,397 --> 00:12:43,426 the way they should. 240 00:12:43,426 --> 00:12:46,818 So I think that's a wrong estimation. 241 00:12:46,818 --> 00:12:48,758 Because think about the Apostle Paul. 242 00:12:48,758 --> 00:12:50,227 What did he say about himself? 243 00:12:50,227 --> 00:12:53,307 He said, "I'm the chief of sinners." 244 00:12:53,307 --> 00:12:56,111 This is a statement worthy of all acceptation 245 00:12:56,111 --> 00:12:58,705 that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners 246 00:12:58,705 --> 00:13:00,138 of whom I am chief." 247 00:13:00,138 --> 00:13:02,249 And what was he chiefly? 248 00:13:02,249 --> 00:13:04,087 Not a fornicator, not an adulterer, 249 00:13:04,087 --> 00:13:05,956 not a swearer. 250 00:13:05,956 --> 00:13:07,516 He wasn't the drunk. 251 00:13:07,516 --> 00:13:08,886 He wasn't in the gutter. 252 00:13:08,886 --> 00:13:10,306 He wasn't in the brothels. 253 00:13:10,306 --> 00:13:12,786 He wasn't in the bars and in the taverns. 254 00:13:12,786 --> 00:13:13,597 He wasn't. 255 00:13:13,597 --> 00:13:16,325 He wasn't the guy walking around with the filthy mouth. 256 00:13:16,325 --> 00:13:19,617 He was the guy that when it came religiously speaking, 257 00:13:19,617 --> 00:13:24,686 he walked the line. 258 00:13:24,686 --> 00:13:26,168 And he's the chief. 259 00:13:26,168 --> 00:13:32,755 And see I think it's a bad measuring stick. 260 00:13:32,755 --> 00:13:36,947 It's blindness. 261 00:13:36,947 --> 00:13:38,596 We categorize sins 262 00:13:38,596 --> 00:13:44,327 and I think that it's a matter 263 00:13:44,327 --> 00:13:46,936 of ignorance and blindness 264 00:13:46,936 --> 00:13:51,946 of seeing certain types of sin 265 00:13:51,946 --> 00:13:55,539 for how wicked and evil they really are. 266 00:13:55,539 --> 00:13:58,216 Anybody got any comments on that? 267 00:13:58,216 --> 00:14:00,687 James: I just thought I'd read that one verse, 268 00:14:00,687 --> 00:14:02,827 Luke 11:47, "And the servant 269 00:14:02,827 --> 00:14:04,708 who knew his master's will, 270 00:14:04,708 --> 00:14:07,737 but did not get ready or act according to his will 271 00:14:07,737 --> 00:14:13,376 will receive a severe beating." 272 00:14:13,376 --> 00:14:16,477 Tim: Yeah, there's a matter of knowing, 273 00:14:16,477 --> 00:14:18,529 knowledge, light. 274 00:14:18,529 --> 00:14:20,016 When you have light, 275 00:14:20,016 --> 00:14:27,957 it really compounds your guilt. 276 00:14:27,957 --> 00:14:30,837 Anyway, he goes on to say more, 277 00:14:30,837 --> 00:14:32,897 but I wanted to just touch that 278 00:14:32,897 --> 00:14:37,033 because I thought that was a really interesting perspective.