1 00:00:00,658 --> 00:00:04,634 There is a power to those cults, 2 00:00:04,634 --> 00:00:06,794 and that power lures in, 3 00:00:06,794 --> 00:00:08,095 and then that power holds 4 00:00:08,095 --> 00:00:09,317 once you are in there. 5 00:00:09,317 --> 00:00:11,160 When you're confronted with the truth, 6 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,302 you begin to suspect yourself 7 00:00:13,302 --> 00:00:15,758 rather than the cult. 8 00:00:15,758 --> 00:00:17,602 You begin to say to yourself, 9 00:00:17,602 --> 00:00:19,472 "Well, surely I'm not seeing things right. 10 00:00:19,472 --> 00:00:21,682 Surely it's not like that." 11 00:00:21,682 --> 00:00:25,481 And there's a power that holds people in there. 12 00:00:25,481 --> 00:00:28,468 Interview with Clint Leiter Pastor of Highway M Chapel 13 00:00:28,468 --> 00:00:30,308 Sedalia, Missouri 14 00:00:30,308 --> 00:00:32,452 James: You have previously mentioned to me 15 00:00:32,452 --> 00:00:35,404 that in your past before pastoring in Missouri 16 00:00:35,404 --> 00:00:38,031 you got pulled into a group that was a cult. 17 00:00:38,031 --> 00:00:39,422 I believe you used that term. 18 00:00:39,422 --> 00:00:40,684 Correct me if I'm wrong. 19 00:00:40,684 --> 00:00:42,090 I thought it would be helpful 20 00:00:42,090 --> 00:00:45,336 if you could describe what errors they held to 21 00:00:45,336 --> 00:00:47,815 and how the subtlety of it deceived you 22 00:00:47,815 --> 00:00:48,972 for that season. 23 00:00:48,972 --> 00:00:51,143 Maybe what you went through there 24 00:00:51,143 --> 00:00:53,727 could help someone else who's being deceived 25 00:00:53,727 --> 00:00:56,407 in a similar situation. 26 00:00:56,407 --> 00:00:59,662 Clint: Well, that's a bit of history 27 00:00:59,662 --> 00:01:05,219 in my past that I'm somewhat embarrassed 28 00:01:05,219 --> 00:01:06,561 and ashamed over - 29 00:01:06,561 --> 00:01:09,818 that I would be led into something like that. 30 00:01:09,818 --> 00:01:12,095 I have used the word "cult" before 31 00:01:12,095 --> 00:01:14,670 because I believe that's what it was. 32 00:01:14,670 --> 00:01:18,774 In my case, my background 33 00:01:18,774 --> 00:01:24,177 was somewhat dead churches, 34 00:01:24,177 --> 00:01:26,052 compromised churches. 35 00:01:26,052 --> 00:01:30,077 And so I encountered this individual 36 00:01:30,077 --> 00:01:31,962 who was very zealous - 37 00:01:31,962 --> 00:01:34,714 on the outside very zealous. 38 00:01:34,714 --> 00:01:37,558 And the group that I was a part of 39 00:01:37,558 --> 00:01:40,856 was a parachurch organization 40 00:01:40,856 --> 00:01:43,255 that had for its emphasis 41 00:01:43,255 --> 00:01:47,261 a ministry to the poor, the widows, 42 00:01:47,261 --> 00:01:48,928 the oppressed, 43 00:01:48,928 --> 00:01:52,476 and particularly in third world countries. 44 00:01:52,476 --> 00:01:54,790 And so at that point in my life, 45 00:01:54,790 --> 00:01:57,105 I was thirsting very much 46 00:01:57,105 --> 00:02:00,327 for something real and alive, 47 00:02:00,327 --> 00:02:04,240 and that zeal was right there. 48 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,246 And I may have been an early convert 49 00:02:08,246 --> 00:02:10,434 at that point in my life. 50 00:02:10,434 --> 00:02:12,495 It's difficult for me to say. 51 00:02:12,495 --> 00:02:15,363 But at any point, I was lured in 52 00:02:15,363 --> 00:02:18,809 and captivated by this zeal. 53 00:02:18,809 --> 00:02:24,447 And I think it's a characteristic of cults 54 00:02:24,447 --> 00:02:30,885 to be initiated by one man 55 00:02:30,885 --> 00:02:33,645 who is a charismatic personality. 56 00:02:33,645 --> 00:02:36,027 And so that's something to be on guard against. 57 00:02:36,027 --> 00:02:39,165 This fellow was a charismatic personality. 58 00:02:39,165 --> 00:02:41,850 He was six foot four. 59 00:02:41,850 --> 00:02:43,537 Very outgoing. 60 00:02:43,537 --> 00:02:46,459 Very musical and very zealous. 61 00:02:46,459 --> 00:02:48,899 And so initially, that's what caught my eye 62 00:02:48,899 --> 00:02:52,716 and lured me in. 63 00:02:52,716 --> 00:02:54,819 During those years of my life, 64 00:02:54,819 --> 00:02:56,876 there was a lot of Clint Leiter 65 00:02:56,876 --> 00:03:01,087 and not enough of Jesus. 66 00:03:01,087 --> 00:03:04,653 I think I had some good motivation 67 00:03:04,653 --> 00:03:08,077 in the way of the Gospel to the third world, 68 00:03:08,077 --> 00:03:11,719 but in my travels to India and Africa 69 00:03:11,719 --> 00:03:13,635 and Mexico and so on, 70 00:03:13,635 --> 00:03:16,817 there was a lot of adventure seeking in that. 71 00:03:16,817 --> 00:03:23,056 And this cult provided that opportunity 72 00:03:23,056 --> 00:03:27,128 to fulfill that thirst that was there for me. 73 00:03:27,128 --> 00:03:30,708 Now, I say they were parachurch organization 74 00:03:30,708 --> 00:03:34,530 in the sense that they weren't affiliated 75 00:03:34,530 --> 00:03:36,318 with any particular church; 76 00:03:36,318 --> 00:03:38,040 any particular body. 77 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:42,652 And their emphasis was an overemphasis 78 00:03:42,652 --> 00:03:44,507 on the poor and the needy 79 00:03:44,507 --> 00:03:47,746 and the oppressed in the world. 80 00:03:47,746 --> 00:03:50,276 And it's often times, I think, 81 00:03:50,276 --> 00:03:53,093 a characteristic of cults 82 00:03:53,093 --> 00:03:56,080 that they take something from the Bible 83 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,008 and overemphasize it. 84 00:03:58,008 --> 00:04:02,189 For instance, I'll give you an example. 85 00:04:02,189 --> 00:04:05,115 At the end of James 1, 86 00:04:05,115 --> 00:04:08,602 pure religion undefiled, 87 00:04:08,602 --> 00:04:13,987 James says, it is to meet the widows 88 00:04:13,987 --> 00:04:16,571 and the orphans in their distress 89 00:04:16,571 --> 00:04:19,891 and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. 90 00:04:19,891 --> 00:04:23,313 Well, in the context, James is simply using that 91 00:04:23,313 --> 00:04:25,294 as an example over and against 92 00:04:25,294 --> 00:04:28,813 being a hearer of the Word and not a doer of it. 93 00:04:28,813 --> 00:04:31,314 But they take that verse and they say 94 00:04:31,314 --> 00:04:33,396 this is Christianity. 95 00:04:33,396 --> 00:04:36,493 If you're not going down to the widow 96 00:04:36,493 --> 00:04:38,305 down the street from you 97 00:04:38,305 --> 00:04:39,846 and mowing her lawn, 98 00:04:39,846 --> 00:04:42,087 or you're not starting an orphanage 99 00:04:42,087 --> 00:04:44,016 or being a part of an orphanage 100 00:04:44,016 --> 00:04:48,203 or you're not separating yourself 101 00:04:48,203 --> 00:04:50,044 as a group from the world, 102 00:04:50,044 --> 00:04:52,056 you're not fulfilling that. 103 00:04:52,056 --> 00:04:54,170 And so that was a characteristic 104 00:04:54,170 --> 00:04:57,371 that I would say should be a danger sign. 105 00:04:57,371 --> 00:05:00,436 That is, highlighting something, 106 00:05:00,436 --> 00:05:03,141 overbalanced in the Bible. 107 00:05:03,141 --> 00:05:05,489 Another characteristic that was 108 00:05:05,489 --> 00:05:08,058 a part of this group was 109 00:05:08,058 --> 00:05:12,186 an overemphasis on the Old Testament 110 00:05:12,186 --> 00:05:14,345 and the way God dealt with Israel - 111 00:05:14,345 --> 00:05:16,328 the nation of Israel. 112 00:05:16,328 --> 00:05:20,642 It led in this group after I had left 113 00:05:20,642 --> 00:05:24,624 to them performing Jewish ceremonies 114 00:05:24,624 --> 00:05:29,376 and erecting tabernacles out in the parking lot, 115 00:05:29,376 --> 00:05:32,634 and studying Hebrew 116 00:05:32,634 --> 00:05:34,727 and all of those kinds of things, 117 00:05:34,727 --> 00:05:37,470 as well as food pantry ministries 118 00:05:37,470 --> 00:05:40,618 to Jewish communities in Chicago. 119 00:05:40,618 --> 00:05:44,178 So there was an overemphasis on the Old Testament. 120 00:05:44,178 --> 00:05:47,146 The leader of the group, 121 00:05:47,146 --> 00:05:50,194 he was into memorizing the Bible 122 00:05:50,194 --> 00:05:53,466 and oftentimes it's another characteristic of cults. 123 00:05:53,466 --> 00:05:55,327 They do know the Bible, 124 00:05:55,327 --> 00:05:59,020 it's just that they're able to twist it to meet their ends. 125 00:05:59,020 --> 00:06:01,033 But of all the books of the Bible 126 00:06:01,033 --> 00:06:02,670 he chose to memorize, 127 00:06:02,670 --> 00:06:04,674 it was Isaiah. 128 00:06:04,674 --> 00:06:06,490 I mean, it wasn't John. 129 00:06:06,490 --> 00:06:09,666 It wasn't Romans. It wasn't Hebrews. 130 00:06:09,666 --> 00:06:11,164 It was Isaiah. 131 00:06:11,164 --> 00:06:13,111 And so I just use that again 132 00:06:13,111 --> 00:06:14,410 as an illustration. 133 00:06:14,410 --> 00:06:20,095 It was an overemphasis on the Old Testament. 134 00:06:20,095 --> 00:06:23,145 Another thing that I saw in this group 135 00:06:23,145 --> 00:06:25,815 as I look back on it especially 136 00:06:25,815 --> 00:06:27,981 is legalism. 137 00:06:27,981 --> 00:06:30,896 And you know, do not handle, 138 00:06:30,896 --> 00:06:33,892 do not taste, do not touch. 139 00:06:33,892 --> 00:06:36,723 Colossians 2 there. 140 00:06:36,723 --> 00:06:40,406 And those things Paul says 141 00:06:40,406 --> 00:06:41,787 to the Colossian church, 142 00:06:41,787 --> 00:06:44,406 they have an appearance of wisdom. 143 00:06:44,406 --> 00:06:47,586 But what are they? They're self-made religion, 144 00:06:47,586 --> 00:06:51,344 self-abasement, harsh treatment of the body, 145 00:06:51,344 --> 00:06:52,783 those kinds of things. 146 00:06:52,783 --> 00:06:55,215 So they were legalistic. 147 00:06:55,215 --> 00:06:58,585 This is what you do if you're a true Christian. 148 00:06:58,585 --> 00:07:03,916 It was a focus on doing rather than on being. 149 00:07:03,916 --> 00:07:07,728 And that's a characteristic, I think, 150 00:07:07,728 --> 00:07:11,288 I noticed of the cult that we were in. 151 00:07:11,288 --> 00:07:15,157 Another characteristic to be on guard against, 152 00:07:15,157 --> 00:07:18,413 and that is immorality. 153 00:07:18,413 --> 00:07:21,690 Moral lapses. 154 00:07:21,690 --> 00:07:26,461 I think that comes directly as a result of legalism. 155 00:07:26,461 --> 00:07:30,492 Because again, Colossians 2, 156 00:07:30,492 --> 00:07:32,452 these things are of no value 157 00:07:32,452 --> 00:07:34,879 against fleshly indulgence. 158 00:07:34,879 --> 00:07:36,908 And so you've got legalism. 159 00:07:36,908 --> 00:07:39,270 There's no power there to deal 160 00:07:39,270 --> 00:07:42,106 with the lusts of the flesh and so on. 161 00:07:42,106 --> 00:07:44,461 That comes through walking in the Spirit. 162 00:07:44,461 --> 00:07:48,303 So inevitably, and how often have we seen it, 163 00:07:48,303 --> 00:07:51,228 in parachurch organizations and so on 164 00:07:51,228 --> 00:07:55,471 where things get skewed and overemphasized 165 00:07:55,471 --> 00:08:00,220 and a legalistic bent to their manner, 166 00:08:00,220 --> 00:08:03,513 there's some moral failure among the leadership 167 00:08:03,513 --> 00:08:07,234 and that was the case here in this group as well 168 00:08:07,234 --> 00:08:11,250 that led to us taking a stand against that 169 00:08:11,250 --> 00:08:13,958 and leaving. 170 00:08:13,958 --> 00:08:17,280 God surrounded me with godly men 171 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,659 that were able to counsel me 172 00:08:19,659 --> 00:08:21,418 and encourage me 173 00:08:21,418 --> 00:08:23,689 and bring me out of that. 174 00:08:23,689 --> 00:08:29,504 Because I say there is a power 175 00:08:29,504 --> 00:08:33,553 to those cults that is unrecognized 176 00:08:33,553 --> 00:08:35,250 maybe by people who haven't been 177 00:08:35,250 --> 00:08:37,292 directly involved in them. 178 00:08:37,292 --> 00:08:39,455 And that power lures in 179 00:08:39,455 --> 00:08:41,996 and then that power holds once you're in there. 180 00:08:41,996 --> 00:08:45,908 And when you're confronted with the truth, 181 00:08:45,908 --> 00:08:48,349 you begin to suspect yourself 182 00:08:48,349 --> 00:08:50,813 rather than the cult. 183 00:08:50,813 --> 00:08:52,395 You begin to say to yourself, 184 00:08:52,395 --> 00:08:54,483 "Well, surely I'm not seeing things right. 185 00:08:54,483 --> 00:08:56,367 Surely it's not like that." 186 00:08:56,367 --> 00:09:00,885 And there's a power that holds people in there. 187 00:09:00,885 --> 00:09:02,955 And so those are some characteristics 188 00:09:02,955 --> 00:09:07,396 that I noticed being in that cult 189 00:09:07,396 --> 00:09:10,950 and that were prevalent 190 00:09:10,950 --> 00:09:15,166 in drawing me, luring me into it. 191 00:09:15,166 --> 00:09:17,146 I think the Lord used that 192 00:09:17,146 --> 00:09:19,256 nonetheless in my life. 193 00:09:19,256 --> 00:09:22,962 I was exposed to the third world. 194 00:09:22,962 --> 00:09:26,607 I made a lot of trips in far away places 195 00:09:26,607 --> 00:09:34,132 and ministered in whatever flawed capacity I was in 196 00:09:34,132 --> 00:09:39,654 to people in really hard, difficult situations 197 00:09:39,654 --> 00:09:41,779 in third world countries. 198 00:09:41,779 --> 00:09:46,247 And I still have that as an experience 199 00:09:46,247 --> 00:09:50,776 that helped me in my Christian walk. 200 00:09:50,776 --> 00:09:52,794 James: When you were coming out of it, 201 00:09:52,794 --> 00:09:54,316 were people like Charles Leiter 202 00:09:54,316 --> 00:09:55,785 saying things to you? 203 00:09:55,785 --> 00:09:57,811 And did you receive that initially? 204 00:09:57,811 --> 00:10:00,281 Or did it take a long period of time 205 00:10:00,281 --> 00:10:01,992 for you to see the errors 206 00:10:01,992 --> 00:10:03,722 that they were pointing out? 207 00:10:03,722 --> 00:10:07,700 Clint: Charles was very helpful to me that way. 208 00:10:07,700 --> 00:10:12,800 With him, I did not doubt his insight. 209 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:18,495 I knew immediately that what I was a part of was wrong. 210 00:10:18,495 --> 00:10:20,624 I needed to get out of it. 211 00:10:20,624 --> 00:10:22,524 So he was one of those 212 00:10:22,524 --> 00:10:26,474 that has been put in my life 213 00:10:26,474 --> 00:10:29,507 signally used of God that way 214 00:10:29,507 --> 00:10:31,371 to steer me in the right direction 215 00:10:31,371 --> 00:10:40,265 and keep me from making a ruin of things. 216 00:10:40,265 --> 00:10:44,216 So it was very helpful. 217 00:10:44,216 --> 00:10:47,209 James: So where did you go from that point 218 00:10:47,209 --> 00:10:49,013 to get to where you're at now 219 00:10:49,013 --> 00:10:50,734 pastoring in Sedalia? 220 00:10:50,734 --> 00:10:52,992 Clint: Well, again, one of the characteristics 221 00:10:52,992 --> 00:10:56,053 of the cult that I was in - 222 00:10:56,053 --> 00:10:59,722 I think it has to be common in a lot of ways - 223 00:10:59,722 --> 00:11:03,836 a parachurch organization that it becomes a cult - 224 00:11:03,836 --> 00:11:05,890 they begin to view themselves 225 00:11:05,890 --> 00:11:09,334 not as an aside ministry, 226 00:11:09,334 --> 00:11:11,111 an extension of the church, 227 00:11:11,111 --> 00:11:13,967 they begin to view themselves as the church. 228 00:11:13,967 --> 00:11:16,888 And this group had worship meetings 229 00:11:16,888 --> 00:11:18,298 and things like that. 230 00:11:18,298 --> 00:11:19,977 They were very communal 231 00:11:19,977 --> 00:11:23,093 and made up mostly of young people 232 00:11:23,093 --> 00:11:24,407 who were disadvantaged 233 00:11:24,407 --> 00:11:26,490 and came from bad situations 234 00:11:26,490 --> 00:11:27,763 who felt the love there 235 00:11:27,763 --> 00:11:29,827 and the compassion 236 00:11:29,827 --> 00:11:31,799 and so they were drawn into it. 237 00:11:31,799 --> 00:11:35,047 But anyway, they were a church 238 00:11:35,047 --> 00:11:36,703 meeting on Sunday mornings. 239 00:11:36,703 --> 00:11:38,967 We were a part of that as well 240 00:11:38,967 --> 00:11:42,154 at that point in our life. 241 00:11:42,154 --> 00:11:45,536 When we left that group, 242 00:11:45,536 --> 00:11:49,650 we began to meet in my father's basement 243 00:11:49,650 --> 00:11:52,292 as a home church. 244 00:11:52,292 --> 00:11:54,790 Just a small group of Christians, 245 00:11:54,790 --> 00:11:58,723 mostly family, in his basement. 246 00:11:58,723 --> 00:12:01,806 And I felt a compelling desire 247 00:12:01,806 --> 00:12:05,483 to shepherd that group 248 00:12:05,483 --> 00:12:07,228 on a weekly basis; 249 00:12:07,228 --> 00:12:10,217 to bring a word from the Bible. 250 00:12:10,217 --> 00:12:13,622 Something with the authority of Scripture to it. 251 00:12:13,622 --> 00:12:16,038 Something thought out and planned. 252 00:12:16,038 --> 00:12:17,352 A sermon. 253 00:12:17,352 --> 00:12:20,666 And so we began to function as a church. 254 00:12:20,666 --> 00:12:22,245 We began to take communion. 255 00:12:22,245 --> 00:12:24,002 We had hymn books. 256 00:12:24,002 --> 00:12:26,640 My mom played the piano. 257 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,633 And I would prepare a sermon. 258 00:12:29,633 --> 00:12:35,137 I asked my father if he felt any desire, 259 00:12:35,137 --> 00:12:38,843 compelling desire to pastor this group. 260 00:12:38,843 --> 00:12:41,919 And he said he didn't, and I said, well, I do. 261 00:12:41,919 --> 00:12:44,531 So I began to operate and function 262 00:12:44,531 --> 00:12:46,685 in that capacity. 263 00:12:46,685 --> 00:12:48,630 I was working full time 264 00:12:48,630 --> 00:12:52,094 as an industrial electrician at the time. 265 00:12:52,094 --> 00:12:53,964 And so I would rise from my bed 266 00:12:53,964 --> 00:12:57,636 and spend a few sleepy moments there 267 00:12:57,636 --> 00:13:00,536 in preparation and head off to work 268 00:13:00,536 --> 00:13:02,836 and keep a notepad in my pocket. 269 00:13:02,836 --> 00:13:05,694 And as I was meditating on a verse, 270 00:13:05,694 --> 00:13:07,993 I'd jot down some thoughts or something. 271 00:13:07,993 --> 00:13:10,249 And my week would progress that way 272 00:13:10,249 --> 00:13:11,847 and I would cram on Saturday 273 00:13:11,847 --> 00:13:13,386 and try and produce something 274 00:13:13,386 --> 00:13:16,184 that could be prepared useful 275 00:13:16,184 --> 00:13:18,384 for a group on Sunday morning. 276 00:13:18,384 --> 00:13:23,364 So I began functioning that way. 277 00:13:23,364 --> 00:13:26,267 We invited men to come speak to us. 278 00:13:26,267 --> 00:13:27,966 Charles came and spoke. 279 00:13:27,966 --> 00:13:31,095 Conrad Murrell came and spoke to us. 280 00:13:31,095 --> 00:13:34,218 Michael Durham from Paducah, Kentucky. 281 00:13:34,218 --> 00:13:36,472 Mack Tomlinson. 282 00:13:36,472 --> 00:13:38,563 Different ones came and spoke to us 283 00:13:38,563 --> 00:13:42,384 and we were less than a dozen people. 284 00:13:42,384 --> 00:13:44,765 It's a real tribute to these men of God. 285 00:13:44,765 --> 00:13:48,084 They don't have to have hundreds to stand before. 286 00:13:48,084 --> 00:13:50,506 They gladly did that. 287 00:13:50,506 --> 00:13:54,721 But when Conrad was staying with us one time 288 00:13:54,721 --> 00:13:57,827 in my home ministering to us, 289 00:13:57,827 --> 00:13:59,507 we were sitting on the love seat 290 00:13:59,507 --> 00:14:00,840 and I was talking to him 291 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,356 and just telling him where I was at 292 00:14:04,356 --> 00:14:07,968 and how I felt like God had something 293 00:14:07,968 --> 00:14:11,558 for me here, and yet I was an electrician 294 00:14:11,558 --> 00:14:13,668 at the same time. 295 00:14:13,668 --> 00:14:16,177 And Conrad, he sat there 296 00:14:16,177 --> 00:14:19,820 characteristically quiet as he does thinking. 297 00:14:19,820 --> 00:14:21,834 And then he said, well, Clint, 298 00:14:21,834 --> 00:14:24,933 I think there's no other way to view this 299 00:14:24,933 --> 00:14:28,086 than you've been drafted into the ministry. 300 00:14:28,086 --> 00:14:31,223 And that word was very prophetic 301 00:14:31,223 --> 00:14:32,385 coming from him. 302 00:14:32,385 --> 00:14:36,619 It was very confirming coming from him. 303 00:14:36,619 --> 00:14:39,614 And all I could do was sit there and weep 304 00:14:39,614 --> 00:14:40,797 at that point in time. 305 00:14:40,797 --> 00:14:42,564 It was just like a burden had lifted. 306 00:14:42,564 --> 00:14:44,354 It was what I needed to hear. 307 00:14:44,354 --> 00:14:46,766 And so from then on, 308 00:14:46,766 --> 00:14:50,326 that set my course in a resolve 309 00:14:50,326 --> 00:14:55,198 to shepherd the people of God. 310 00:14:55,198 --> 00:14:56,757 James: As far as the transition 311 00:14:56,757 --> 00:14:59,025 from going from Illinois to Missouri 312 00:14:59,025 --> 00:15:01,364 and co-pastoring with Bob Jennings, 313 00:15:01,364 --> 00:15:05,250 how did the Lord bring that about? 314 00:15:05,250 --> 00:15:07,529 To hear Clint's repsonse to that question 315 00:15:07,529 --> 00:15:09,358 and part two of the interview, 316 00:15:09,358 --> 00:15:11,958 you can click below if you're watching the video. 317 00:15:11,958 --> 00:15:14,769 If you're listening, you can find the audio 318 00:15:14,769 --> 00:15:16,412 on our mobile app 319 00:15:16,412 --> 00:15:18,872 or on illbehonest.com.