1 00:00:00,982 --> 00:00:03,343 Question: Do you deny God's moral law? 2 00:00:03,343 --> 00:00:04,910 Charles: There's no possibly way 3 00:00:04,910 --> 00:00:06,870 if you put Christ as your standard, 4 00:00:06,870 --> 00:00:08,449 there's no way you could be 5 00:00:08,449 --> 00:00:09,876 denying the moral law, 6 00:00:09,876 --> 00:00:11,781 because He is the highest revelation 7 00:00:11,781 --> 00:00:13,843 of the moral law that there is. 8 00:00:13,843 --> 00:00:15,358 The only explanation that I could have 9 00:00:15,358 --> 00:00:17,652 for why that would be misunderstood 10 00:00:17,652 --> 00:00:21,722 is that people so revere 11 00:00:21,722 --> 00:00:23,244 their reformed tradition 12 00:00:23,244 --> 00:00:25,346 and the things that they've been taught 13 00:00:25,346 --> 00:00:28,799 that they don't listen to what's actually being said. 14 00:00:28,799 --> 00:00:30,021 In fact, a lot of times, 15 00:00:30,021 --> 00:00:32,272 they're not even willing to listen at all 16 00:00:32,272 --> 00:00:33,915 because they have in their mind: 17 00:00:33,915 --> 00:00:35,446 this must be heresy. 18 00:00:35,446 --> 00:00:37,499 I've had similar things in my own life 19 00:00:37,499 --> 00:00:39,116 whenever I was a new Christian. 20 00:00:39,116 --> 00:00:40,709 I'd hear some term and I'd think 21 00:00:40,709 --> 00:00:42,759 that must be the worst heresy around. 22 00:00:42,759 --> 00:00:46,359 I'd find out ten years later that it was true. 23 00:00:46,359 --> 00:00:49,607 I think that's probably the reason. 24 00:00:49,607 --> 00:00:52,756 People don't allow themselves to listen. 25 00:00:52,756 --> 00:00:56,814 Interview of Charles Leiter on "The Law of Christ." 26 00:00:56,814 --> 00:00:59,220 Question: Why is the topic of the law of Christ 27 00:00:59,220 --> 00:01:01,195 important to understand? 28 00:01:01,195 --> 00:01:02,616 Charles: Well, first of all, 29 00:01:02,616 --> 00:01:05,246 Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9, 30 00:01:05,246 --> 00:01:08,512 he says speaking of the Jews, 31 00:01:08,512 --> 00:01:11,421 he says to the Jews I became as a Jew, 32 00:01:11,421 --> 00:01:14,076 to those who under the law as under the law. 33 00:01:14,076 --> 00:01:16,063 And then he immediately says 34 00:01:16,063 --> 00:01:18,651 though not being myself under the law. 35 00:01:18,651 --> 00:01:21,687 So he's saying that he's not under 36 00:01:21,687 --> 00:01:23,239 the Law of Moses. 37 00:01:23,239 --> 00:01:25,071 And then he goes on and he says 38 00:01:25,071 --> 00:01:26,355 concerning the Gentiles, 39 00:01:26,355 --> 00:01:28,102 to those who are without law - 40 00:01:28,102 --> 00:01:31,161 that is, those without the Bible, 41 00:01:31,161 --> 00:01:33,685 without the law of Moses, 42 00:01:33,685 --> 00:01:37,029 I became as one without law. 43 00:01:37,029 --> 00:01:40,664 So immediately you have the thought, 44 00:01:40,664 --> 00:01:44,952 well, he became as one without law. 45 00:01:44,952 --> 00:01:49,391 Did he just become totally lawless? 46 00:01:49,391 --> 00:01:51,141 Immoral? 47 00:01:51,141 --> 00:01:55,303 And he immediately corrects that. 48 00:01:55,303 --> 00:01:57,978 He says though not without the law of God, 49 00:01:57,978 --> 00:02:01,789 but under the law or in law to Christ. 50 00:02:01,789 --> 00:02:06,376 So he mentions that his standard there 51 00:02:06,376 --> 00:02:10,039 is the law of Christ. 52 00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:13,226 Another question comes up for Christians. 53 00:02:13,226 --> 00:02:18,080 You'd have the question of what is my standard? 54 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,327 What is my rule of duty? 55 00:02:21,327 --> 00:02:25,109 And Paul immediately says it's the law of Christ. 56 00:02:25,109 --> 00:02:28,499 And so the question comes up, 57 00:02:28,499 --> 00:02:30,181 what is the law of Christ? 58 00:02:30,181 --> 00:02:31,820 And why haven't we been taught 59 00:02:31,820 --> 00:02:34,585 about the law of Christ? 60 00:02:34,585 --> 00:02:37,806 Can I articulate what's the really big things 61 00:02:37,806 --> 00:02:40,887 for me to keep in mind as a Christian? 62 00:02:40,887 --> 00:02:46,925 What is the standard 63 00:02:46,925 --> 00:02:49,867 that the Lord Jesus Himself put forth 64 00:02:49,867 --> 00:02:52,955 as being the ultimate thing for me to remember? 65 00:02:52,955 --> 00:02:54,699 The guideposts? 66 00:02:54,699 --> 00:02:59,112 So, immediately we're faced with that question - 67 00:02:59,112 --> 00:03:01,875 the law of Christ. 68 00:03:01,875 --> 00:03:04,387 This works itself out in many areas. 69 00:03:04,387 --> 00:03:06,528 He said to those who are under the law, 70 00:03:06,528 --> 00:03:08,488 I became like one under the law. 71 00:03:08,488 --> 00:03:10,380 (incomplete thought) 72 00:03:10,380 --> 00:03:12,989 We even find him in the book of Acts 73 00:03:12,989 --> 00:03:15,424 taking a vow and shaving his head, 74 00:03:15,424 --> 00:03:21,436 so he's trying to reach the Jews 75 00:03:21,436 --> 00:03:22,955 who are under the law, 76 00:03:22,955 --> 00:03:24,820 but he says though not being myself 77 00:03:24,820 --> 00:03:25,885 under the law. 78 00:03:25,885 --> 00:03:28,815 So that was something he voluntarily did, 79 00:03:28,815 --> 00:03:33,544 but it was not required of him. 80 00:03:33,544 --> 00:03:36,912 So, a lot of questions begin to come up. 81 00:03:36,912 --> 00:03:39,780 And as soon as you become a Christian, 82 00:03:39,780 --> 00:03:42,176 you face this question of: 83 00:03:42,176 --> 00:03:45,820 how do I understand the Old Testament? 84 00:03:45,820 --> 00:03:48,936 I see these verses about homosexuality 85 00:03:48,936 --> 00:03:51,064 as an abomination to God, 86 00:03:51,064 --> 00:03:53,239 but then there's another verse that says 87 00:03:53,239 --> 00:03:56,737 eating pork is an abomination to God. 88 00:03:56,737 --> 00:03:59,391 And how am I to sort through all this? 89 00:03:59,391 --> 00:04:02,726 Tattoos - tattoos are mentioned. 90 00:04:02,726 --> 00:04:05,366 But right next to the verse about tattoos 91 00:04:05,366 --> 00:04:08,457 is "you shall not harm the edges of your beard." 92 00:04:08,457 --> 00:04:11,500 So shaving your beard... 93 00:04:11,500 --> 00:04:14,398 So it's a very practical thing. 94 00:04:14,398 --> 00:04:21,657 How do Christians relate to the law of Moses? 95 00:04:21,657 --> 00:04:25,144 How do we sort through all that? 96 00:04:25,144 --> 00:04:27,903 So these are things that the book deals with. 97 00:04:27,903 --> 00:04:29,177 What is the law of Christ? 98 00:04:29,177 --> 00:04:30,902 What is the Christian's relationship 99 00:04:30,902 --> 00:04:32,154 to the law of Moses? 100 00:04:32,154 --> 00:04:35,563 How are we to understand all that? 101 00:04:35,563 --> 00:04:38,003 They're very practical issues. 102 00:04:38,003 --> 00:04:39,842 I might just say a little bit more. 103 00:04:39,842 --> 00:04:42,820 Some people, they have the idea 104 00:04:42,820 --> 00:04:45,640 that the ceremonial laws as they're called, 105 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,589 as we call them now as Christians, 106 00:04:47,589 --> 00:04:51,030 they have the idea that those 107 00:04:51,030 --> 00:04:53,791 are sort of like health food laws from God 108 00:04:53,791 --> 00:04:55,749 or health laws from God. 109 00:04:55,749 --> 00:04:58,200 And they kind of have in the back of their mind, 110 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:02,383 well, it's bad for you to eat pork, for example. 111 00:05:02,383 --> 00:05:05,384 And some people don't eat pork. 112 00:05:05,384 --> 00:05:09,455 And they kind of have in their mind that that's biblical. 113 00:05:09,455 --> 00:05:13,144 That's more biblical if I don't eat pork than if I do. 114 00:05:13,144 --> 00:05:16,630 So there's divisions that come up between Christians. 115 00:05:16,630 --> 00:05:20,756 And those can be more or less extreme depending. 116 00:05:20,756 --> 00:05:24,495 All of those things are very practical issues. 117 00:05:24,495 --> 00:05:27,332 It keeps on going clear into areas 118 00:05:27,332 --> 00:05:32,885 of Christians being involved in war 119 00:05:32,885 --> 00:05:35,608 and there's all kinds of questions that come up 120 00:05:35,608 --> 00:05:37,981 about God commanding Samuel 121 00:05:37,981 --> 00:05:41,186 to hew Agag to pieces. 122 00:05:41,186 --> 00:05:43,250 And commanding the children of Israel 123 00:05:43,250 --> 00:05:45,217 to spare neither man, woman, or child. 124 00:05:45,217 --> 00:05:48,499 All of those things we have to try 125 00:05:48,499 --> 00:05:49,928 to begin to work through 126 00:05:49,928 --> 00:05:52,190 when you become a Christian. 127 00:05:52,190 --> 00:05:56,456 So it's a very practical area. 128 00:05:56,456 --> 00:05:58,259 Question: What would your response be 129 00:05:58,259 --> 00:06:00,143 to those who might accuse you 130 00:06:00,143 --> 00:06:02,559 based upon the teachings in the book 131 00:06:02,559 --> 00:06:05,099 that you deny God's moral law? 132 00:06:05,099 --> 00:06:08,561 Charles: Well, of course, the statement 133 00:06:08,561 --> 00:06:11,284 that you've denied God's moral law, 134 00:06:11,284 --> 00:06:12,808 that comes from the idea 135 00:06:12,808 --> 00:06:14,197 that the Ten Commandments 136 00:06:14,197 --> 00:06:17,060 are the moral law of God. 137 00:06:17,060 --> 00:06:18,493 And of course, in the book 138 00:06:18,493 --> 00:06:21,546 what I'm presenting is that Christ 139 00:06:21,546 --> 00:06:22,726 is our standard; 140 00:06:22,726 --> 00:06:24,781 that He represents a much higher standard 141 00:06:24,781 --> 00:06:28,549 than the Ten Commandments. 142 00:06:28,549 --> 00:06:30,780 We can see that in several areas. 143 00:06:30,780 --> 00:06:32,673 For example, the Ten Commandments say, 144 00:06:32,673 --> 00:06:34,881 "you shall not commit adultery," 145 00:06:34,881 --> 00:06:40,463 but yet men were allowed to marry multiple wives. 146 00:06:40,463 --> 00:06:42,198 King David had multiple wives. 147 00:06:42,198 --> 00:06:46,022 Solomon not only had multiple wives but concubines. 148 00:06:46,022 --> 00:06:50,592 And that was not considered adultery, 149 00:06:50,592 --> 00:06:57,210 but when David committed adultery with Bathsheba, 150 00:06:57,210 --> 00:07:00,410 that was treated in an entirely different way. 151 00:07:00,410 --> 00:07:03,336 It was totally different than him taking multiple wives. 152 00:07:03,336 --> 00:07:08,498 So, what that means is that the definition 153 00:07:08,498 --> 00:07:12,318 even of adultery under the Ten Commandments 154 00:07:12,318 --> 00:07:15,750 was a looser definition - more permissive, 155 00:07:15,750 --> 00:07:17,975 not as high of a standard 156 00:07:17,975 --> 00:07:20,933 as we have in the New Testament. 157 00:07:20,933 --> 00:07:25,743 Also, the Ten Commandments acknowledged 158 00:07:25,743 --> 00:07:28,935 or recognized the validity of slavery. 159 00:07:28,935 --> 00:07:33,976 And if we look at the kind of slavery, 160 00:07:33,976 --> 00:07:36,074 the standards of slavery; 161 00:07:36,074 --> 00:07:40,502 that God gave those different regulations of slavery 162 00:07:40,502 --> 00:07:43,929 in the Mosaic law, 163 00:07:43,929 --> 00:07:46,222 one of the examples is that you could 164 00:07:46,222 --> 00:07:47,559 beat your slave. 165 00:07:47,559 --> 00:07:52,619 If he lived longer than 3 days, 166 00:07:52,619 --> 00:07:56,163 then there wasn't guilt associated with that. 167 00:07:56,163 --> 00:07:57,836 Well, that's a much lower standard 168 00:07:57,836 --> 00:08:01,193 than to love others as Christ loved us. 169 00:08:01,193 --> 00:08:06,085 And so, it's not to say 170 00:08:06,085 --> 00:08:08,884 that the law of Moses was imperfect 171 00:08:08,884 --> 00:08:10,427 in any way. 172 00:08:10,427 --> 00:08:13,959 There was not one dot in the law of Moses 173 00:08:13,959 --> 00:08:15,613 that was not perfect. 174 00:08:15,613 --> 00:08:19,916 It was exactly right for the situation that it was in. 175 00:08:19,916 --> 00:08:22,323 But it's the same way with the commandment 176 00:08:22,323 --> 00:08:24,171 about divorce. 177 00:08:24,171 --> 00:08:27,362 Jesus said because of the hardness of your heart, 178 00:08:27,362 --> 00:08:28,889 Moses permitted that. 179 00:08:28,889 --> 00:08:31,964 The law of Moses had that written in, 180 00:08:31,964 --> 00:08:35,489 and it was basically a protection of women. 181 00:08:35,489 --> 00:08:38,176 There were many things like that 182 00:08:38,176 --> 00:08:41,369 where God in giving these laws, 183 00:08:41,369 --> 00:08:42,648 they were wonderful laws. 184 00:08:42,648 --> 00:08:45,234 No other nation had such laws 185 00:08:45,234 --> 00:08:47,047 as the nation of Israel. 186 00:08:47,047 --> 00:08:48,779 And God says they'll look at you 187 00:08:48,779 --> 00:08:50,232 and they'll see what a wise 188 00:08:50,232 --> 00:08:51,883 and discerning people 189 00:08:51,883 --> 00:08:54,675 and what great laws God has given you. 190 00:08:54,675 --> 00:08:55,926 And that was true. 191 00:08:55,926 --> 00:08:57,577 And all you have to do is compare 192 00:08:57,577 --> 00:09:00,509 the law of Moses with the code of Hammurabi 193 00:09:00,509 --> 00:09:02,407 and you can see how superior it was. 194 00:09:02,407 --> 00:09:04,331 But God was dealing with them 195 00:09:04,331 --> 00:09:08,016 on the level that they were in some way. 196 00:09:08,016 --> 00:09:10,981 And He's pulling people up out of a culture 197 00:09:10,981 --> 00:09:13,486 that's totally corrupt 198 00:09:13,486 --> 00:09:16,683 and preparing them more and more 199 00:09:16,683 --> 00:09:19,193 for the coming of the Messiah. 200 00:09:19,193 --> 00:09:23,210 (Incomplete thought) 201 00:09:23,210 --> 00:09:25,104 If you say the Ten Commandments 202 00:09:25,104 --> 00:09:27,132 are the moral law, 203 00:09:27,132 --> 00:09:29,012 then what that means is 204 00:09:29,012 --> 00:09:31,116 there's nothing higher than this. 205 00:09:31,116 --> 00:09:33,309 This is the highest thing there is. 206 00:09:33,309 --> 00:09:35,385 So what it means is there can be 207 00:09:35,385 --> 00:09:38,469 no greater revelation of man's duty 208 00:09:38,469 --> 00:09:41,278 than what we see in the Ten Commandments. 209 00:09:41,278 --> 00:09:42,899 And the life of the Lord Jesus 210 00:09:42,899 --> 00:09:44,751 and His commandments 211 00:09:44,751 --> 00:09:47,000 and the commandments of the apostles - 212 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,751 all those things are simply viewed 213 00:09:49,751 --> 00:09:52,468 as footnotes to the Ten Commandments. 214 00:09:52,468 --> 00:09:57,331 And so if you read a lot of reformed theology, 215 00:09:57,331 --> 00:10:00,356 there's hundreds of pages 216 00:10:00,356 --> 00:10:02,469 written on the Ten Commandments 217 00:10:02,469 --> 00:10:05,318 trying to show that all the commandments 218 00:10:05,318 --> 00:10:06,541 of the New Testament 219 00:10:06,541 --> 00:10:09,300 are really there in the Ten Commandments. 220 00:10:09,300 --> 00:10:11,547 But if you look at, for example, 221 00:10:11,547 --> 00:10:13,723 "you shall not commit adultery," 222 00:10:13,723 --> 00:10:15,577 that's a much lower standard 223 00:10:15,577 --> 00:10:17,292 than, "husbands, love your wives 224 00:10:17,292 --> 00:10:19,088 as Christ loved the church." 225 00:10:19,088 --> 00:10:22,091 We have a much higher revelation 226 00:10:22,091 --> 00:10:24,884 of duty and of law. 227 00:10:24,884 --> 00:10:28,128 Law in an expression of the character of God. 228 00:10:28,128 --> 00:10:30,453 And so it spells out for us 229 00:10:30,453 --> 00:10:34,662 what our standard is to be. 230 00:10:34,662 --> 00:10:37,058 The standard of loving your wife 231 00:10:37,058 --> 00:10:38,371 as Christ loved the church 232 00:10:38,371 --> 00:10:39,739 is a much higher standard, 233 00:10:39,739 --> 00:10:41,882 and it gives us a clearer picture 234 00:10:41,882 --> 00:10:45,598 of God's character than what you would see 235 00:10:45,598 --> 00:10:48,164 in the negative commandment: 236 00:10:48,164 --> 00:10:53,408 "you shall not commit adultery." 237 00:10:53,408 --> 00:10:55,261 I don't know, maybe there's more 238 00:10:55,261 --> 00:10:57,365 that I could say on this. 239 00:10:57,365 --> 00:11:00,089 Here's another problem. 240 00:11:00,098 --> 00:11:03,489 First of all, the Bible does not 241 00:11:03,489 --> 00:11:05,461 divide the law into parts. 242 00:11:05,461 --> 00:11:07,194 It doesn't divide it into the civil, 243 00:11:07,194 --> 00:11:09,194 the ceremonial, and the moral. 244 00:11:09,194 --> 00:11:11,751 That's something that basically 245 00:11:11,751 --> 00:11:15,351 the reformers followed Aquinas in that. 246 00:11:15,351 --> 00:11:20,239 And it's a helpful distinction for Christians 247 00:11:20,239 --> 00:11:22,843 because as Christians, 248 00:11:22,843 --> 00:11:24,926 we can look back and we can 249 00:11:24,926 --> 00:11:27,751 pretty much sort out, 250 00:11:27,751 --> 00:11:30,088 this is ceremonial, 251 00:11:30,088 --> 00:11:32,055 this is civil. 252 00:11:32,055 --> 00:11:33,999 For example, a civil commandment 253 00:11:33,999 --> 00:11:35,945 would be what type of penalty 254 00:11:35,945 --> 00:11:38,334 is attached to adultery. 255 00:11:38,334 --> 00:11:40,657 Well, the death penalty was attached to it. 256 00:11:40,657 --> 00:11:42,958 That's a civil thing. 257 00:11:42,958 --> 00:11:45,919 Ceremonial - well, circumcision. 258 00:11:45,919 --> 00:11:50,120 But the problem is, 259 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,219 how is that I know that circumcision 260 00:11:52,219 --> 00:11:54,151 is a ceremonial law? 261 00:11:54,151 --> 00:11:56,115 Well, I know it because Paul says 262 00:11:56,115 --> 00:11:57,605 in the New Testament 263 00:11:57,605 --> 00:12:00,641 circumcision is nothing. 264 00:12:00,641 --> 00:12:02,352 And no Jew would have ever said 265 00:12:02,352 --> 00:12:04,223 circumcision is nothing. 266 00:12:04,223 --> 00:12:06,914 In fact, if you wouldn't be circumcised, 267 00:12:06,914 --> 00:12:09,275 you'd be cut off from Israel. 268 00:12:09,275 --> 00:12:11,516 And Moses just about died 269 00:12:11,516 --> 00:12:13,545 because he delayed circumcision. 270 00:12:13,545 --> 00:12:16,180 His wife didn't like that idea. 271 00:12:16,180 --> 00:12:17,664 And you can see why. 272 00:12:17,664 --> 00:12:20,674 It's a bloody thing. 273 00:12:20,674 --> 00:12:27,184 But this was the sign of the covenant with Abraham. 274 00:12:27,184 --> 00:12:30,184 And to break that commandment 275 00:12:30,184 --> 00:12:31,504 was very serious. 276 00:12:31,504 --> 00:12:33,214 They would never have said 277 00:12:33,214 --> 00:12:36,299 this is just a light thing; it's nothing. 278 00:12:36,299 --> 00:12:38,562 And Paul says it's nothing. 279 00:12:38,562 --> 00:12:40,991 So when you say, well, 280 00:12:40,991 --> 00:12:45,046 why does a civil/ceremonial/ moral distinction 281 00:12:45,046 --> 00:12:46,438 work as well as it does? 282 00:12:46,438 --> 00:12:48,687 Well, the reason it works as well as it does 283 00:12:48,687 --> 00:12:50,015 is that as Christians, 284 00:12:50,015 --> 00:12:52,158 we have that perspective 285 00:12:52,158 --> 00:12:53,504 and we can look back 286 00:12:53,504 --> 00:12:56,308 and look at those things through the lens 287 00:12:56,308 --> 00:13:00,159 of the New Testament. 288 00:13:00,159 --> 00:13:01,469 That's the first point. 289 00:13:01,469 --> 00:13:03,964 Those distinctions are not made. 290 00:13:03,964 --> 00:13:06,051 So when Paul talks about the law, 291 00:13:06,051 --> 00:13:09,247 for example, he almost always has in mind 292 00:13:09,247 --> 00:13:11,315 the Mosaic covenant; 293 00:13:11,315 --> 00:13:13,594 the old covenant. 294 00:13:13,594 --> 00:13:16,957 For example, he says, 295 00:13:16,957 --> 00:13:19,638 the law entered that sin might increase. 296 00:13:19,638 --> 00:13:21,864 Or he says until the law, 297 00:13:21,864 --> 00:13:23,833 sin was in the world. 298 00:13:23,833 --> 00:13:26,181 Death reigned from Adam to Moses. 299 00:13:26,181 --> 00:13:28,076 That's when he's talking about 300 00:13:28,076 --> 00:13:33,646 the giving of the law on Mt. Sinai. 301 00:13:33,646 --> 00:13:36,795 So, law is viewed as a unit - 302 00:13:36,795 --> 00:13:39,766 the Mosaic law, the Mosaic covenant. 303 00:13:39,766 --> 00:13:42,547 So when Paul says we're not under law, 304 00:13:42,547 --> 00:13:44,917 he means that whole thing. 305 00:13:44,917 --> 00:13:48,846 And when you get the civil/ceremonial/moral 306 00:13:48,846 --> 00:13:50,184 distinction in your mind 307 00:13:50,184 --> 00:13:51,862 and you practice it a little bit, 308 00:13:51,862 --> 00:13:54,559 you find yourself unconsciously 309 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,718 reading into it. 310 00:13:57,718 --> 00:14:00,790 For example, "sin shall not have dominion over you, 311 00:14:00,790 --> 00:14:03,743 for you're not under the law, but under grace." 312 00:14:03,743 --> 00:14:06,436 And people read into it immediately in their mind. 313 00:14:06,436 --> 00:14:09,047 Well, I'm not under the condemnation of the law. 314 00:14:09,047 --> 00:14:11,541 I'm not under the ceremonial law. 315 00:14:11,541 --> 00:14:13,884 They'll read something like that into it, 316 00:14:13,884 --> 00:14:15,908 but Paul does not do that. 317 00:14:15,908 --> 00:14:17,970 In fact, he immediately says, what then? 318 00:14:17,970 --> 00:14:20,431 Shall we sin because we're not under the law? 319 00:14:20,431 --> 00:14:23,172 So he's thinking of moral things there. 320 00:14:23,172 --> 00:14:27,054 And he's thinking of the whole thing. 321 00:14:27,054 --> 00:14:35,268 So there's never this division that we make. 322 00:14:35,268 --> 00:14:38,957 All the law is viewed as a unit. 323 00:14:38,957 --> 00:14:41,647 So, there's all kinds of things wrong 324 00:14:41,647 --> 00:14:45,191 with the idea that you divide it all up. 325 00:14:45,191 --> 00:14:46,942 And the biggest thing wrong with it 326 00:14:46,942 --> 00:14:48,178 is that some commandments, 327 00:14:48,178 --> 00:14:50,014 we can't figure out whether they're 328 00:14:50,014 --> 00:14:52,017 partly moral or partly ceremonial 329 00:14:52,017 --> 00:14:54,125 or partly civil. 330 00:14:54,125 --> 00:14:57,634 There's a mixture. 331 00:14:57,634 --> 00:15:00,057 And back on the Ten Commandments, 332 00:15:00,057 --> 00:15:02,134 if you say they are the moral law, 333 00:15:02,134 --> 00:15:03,658 then what you're saying is 334 00:15:03,658 --> 00:15:06,953 these are the ten greatest, 335 00:15:06,953 --> 00:15:11,393 most important things for all mankind. 336 00:15:11,393 --> 00:15:13,997 They're binding on the Gentiles as well as the Jews 337 00:15:13,997 --> 00:15:16,183 for all time. 338 00:15:16,183 --> 00:15:18,995 So these are the big things. 339 00:15:18,995 --> 00:15:22,981 Well, concerning Sabbath keeping, 340 00:15:22,981 --> 00:15:25,695 right now, for example, I myself 341 00:15:25,695 --> 00:15:28,587 do not believe that the 4th commandment 342 00:15:28,587 --> 00:15:30,659 is enjoined upon Christians 343 00:15:30,659 --> 00:15:33,345 and somehow now we keep the Sabbath 344 00:15:33,345 --> 00:15:35,779 on a different day even though 345 00:15:35,779 --> 00:15:37,414 there's no commandment to do that, 346 00:15:37,414 --> 00:15:38,894 and that we don't keep it 347 00:15:38,894 --> 00:15:40,431 the same way that the Jews did 348 00:15:40,431 --> 00:15:43,956 even though there's no commandment about that. 349 00:15:43,956 --> 00:15:46,530 You know, all these things have to be added in. 350 00:15:46,530 --> 00:15:48,483 Well, if I don't believe that way; 351 00:15:48,483 --> 00:15:50,649 if I don't "keep" the Sabbath, 352 00:15:50,649 --> 00:15:53,387 and this is on par with adultery 353 00:15:53,387 --> 00:15:55,470 or stealing or murder, 354 00:15:55,470 --> 00:15:59,207 then you can't say this is a Romans 14 issue 355 00:15:59,207 --> 00:16:01,985 or you're welcome to be in our church 356 00:16:01,985 --> 00:16:04,591 or whatever even though we don't believe that. 357 00:16:04,591 --> 00:16:09,492 What you have to say is is that you're not a Christian. 358 00:16:09,492 --> 00:16:11,186 Just as we would say if a man 359 00:16:11,186 --> 00:16:13,939 was an adulterer or a murderer, 360 00:16:13,939 --> 00:16:16,280 and he continued on in that 361 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,366 in an unrepentant state. 362 00:16:18,366 --> 00:16:22,339 So, it's a very inconsistent position 363 00:16:22,339 --> 00:16:24,845 to say this is the moral law, 364 00:16:24,845 --> 00:16:27,791 and then to say, well, we differ on this, 365 00:16:27,791 --> 00:16:31,302 but you can be part of our church. 366 00:16:31,302 --> 00:16:33,389 It's one way or the other. 367 00:16:33,389 --> 00:16:38,363 You can't have it be sort of a moral law. 368 00:16:38,363 --> 00:16:41,343 So the problem with that is that 369 00:16:41,343 --> 00:16:44,920 there are many inconsistencies in that. 370 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:46,741 Question: So as far as those who say 371 00:16:46,741 --> 00:16:48,740 that you deny God's moral law? 372 00:16:48,740 --> 00:16:50,435 Charles: There's no possible way. 373 00:16:50,435 --> 00:16:52,462 If you put Christ as your standard, 374 00:16:52,462 --> 00:16:54,622 there's no way you could be denying 375 00:16:54,622 --> 00:16:55,636 the moral law. 376 00:16:55,636 --> 00:16:57,753 Because He is the highest revelation 377 00:16:57,753 --> 00:16:59,716 of moral law that there is. 378 00:16:59,716 --> 00:17:01,812 Usually what they're thinking there 379 00:17:01,812 --> 00:17:03,743 is that you don't believe 380 00:17:03,743 --> 00:17:06,153 that the Christian is under the 4th commandment 381 00:17:06,153 --> 00:17:07,813 of the Decalogue. 382 00:17:07,813 --> 00:17:09,525 And I would say that the Christian 383 00:17:09,525 --> 00:17:11,520 is not under any of the commandments 384 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:12,649 of the Decalogue. 385 00:17:12,649 --> 00:17:15,523 We fulfill all those and far beyond. 386 00:17:15,523 --> 00:17:18,350 If you love your wife as Christ loved the church, 387 00:17:18,350 --> 00:17:20,160 you're doing far more than: 388 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,320 "Thou shalt not commit adultery." 389 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,973 All those things - even the Sabbath commandment 390 00:17:24,973 --> 00:17:27,880 the Christian fulfills in its deepest meaning 391 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,495 which had to do with resting in Christ 392 00:17:30,495 --> 00:17:37,423 and ceasing from our own works and so on. 393 00:17:37,423 --> 00:17:42,022 We don't deny any of the moral law. 394 00:17:42,022 --> 00:17:44,736 That's never an issue. 395 00:17:44,736 --> 00:17:47,062 If you had a group of people 396 00:17:47,062 --> 00:17:49,051 that were just like Christ, 397 00:17:49,051 --> 00:17:50,751 you wouldn't have to worry about 398 00:17:50,751 --> 00:17:53,679 any of them denying the moral law. 399 00:17:53,679 --> 00:17:57,837 They would be perfect fulfillments of it. 400 00:17:57,837 --> 00:17:59,496 But even in the Lord's life, 401 00:17:59,496 --> 00:18:02,727 He broke the Sabbath on some occasions. 402 00:18:02,727 --> 00:18:06,639 So, I can talk about a little if you want. 403 00:18:06,639 --> 00:18:09,228 I don't know if you had another question on that, 404 00:18:09,228 --> 00:18:11,149 or if I've said enough on this. 405 00:18:11,149 --> 00:18:12,747 Question: So what is the most 406 00:18:12,747 --> 00:18:14,874 misunderstood aspect of your position 407 00:18:14,874 --> 00:18:16,704 and could you clarify on it 408 00:18:16,704 --> 00:18:19,003 and why is it misunderstood? 409 00:18:19,003 --> 00:18:20,253 Charles: I think probably 410 00:18:20,253 --> 00:18:22,154 the most misunderstood aspect 411 00:18:22,154 --> 00:18:24,479 would be for people to have in their head 412 00:18:24,479 --> 00:18:26,385 that somehow I'm saying that holiness 413 00:18:26,385 --> 00:18:28,070 is not necessary for a Christian; 414 00:18:28,070 --> 00:18:29,999 that a Christian shouldn't be concerned 415 00:18:29,999 --> 00:18:31,286 about holiness. 416 00:18:31,286 --> 00:18:34,040 And of course, I'm saying the opposite throughout, 417 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,139 that Christ is the higher standard, 418 00:18:37,139 --> 00:18:45,299 and that the Christian should be like Christ. 419 00:18:45,299 --> 00:18:47,971 The only explanation that I could have 420 00:18:47,971 --> 00:18:50,166 for why that would be misunderstood 421 00:18:50,166 --> 00:18:53,182 is that people so revere 422 00:18:53,182 --> 00:18:55,437 their reformed tradition 423 00:18:55,437 --> 00:18:57,470 and the things that they've been taught 424 00:18:57,470 --> 00:19:01,060 that they don't listen to what's actually being said. 425 00:19:01,060 --> 00:19:03,085 In fact, a lot of times, they're not even 426 00:19:03,085 --> 00:19:04,538 willing to listen at all 427 00:19:04,538 --> 00:19:06,337 because they have in their mind: 428 00:19:06,337 --> 00:19:11,295 this must be heresy. 429 00:19:11,295 --> 00:19:14,218 I've had similar things in my own life 430 00:19:14,218 --> 00:19:15,716 whenever I was a new Christian, 431 00:19:15,716 --> 00:19:17,295 I'd hear some term and I'd think 432 00:19:17,295 --> 00:19:19,375 that must be the worst heresy around. 433 00:19:19,375 --> 00:19:22,812 I'd find out ten years later that it was true. 434 00:19:22,812 --> 00:19:28,463 And so I think that's probably the reason 435 00:19:28,463 --> 00:19:32,991 that people don't allow themselves to listen. 436 00:19:32,991 --> 00:19:38,646 In fact, they either would not make it through a sermon, 437 00:19:38,646 --> 00:19:40,669 really give it an opportunity to hear 438 00:19:40,669 --> 00:19:41,871 what's being said, 439 00:19:41,871 --> 00:19:44,663 or they wouldn't make it through the book. 440 00:19:44,663 --> 00:19:45,842 They'd put it down. 441 00:19:45,842 --> 00:19:51,009 They didn't like to even think about that possibility. 442 00:19:51,009 --> 00:19:53,020 In my own testimony, 443 00:19:53,020 --> 00:19:56,560 I'd been a Christian for over 20 years. 444 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:58,749 I look back at this as to the time 445 00:19:58,749 --> 00:20:01,357 where the transition really took place, 446 00:20:01,357 --> 00:20:05,585 and it had been over 20 years that I'd been a Christian, 447 00:20:05,585 --> 00:20:07,741 and a lot of the things 448 00:20:07,741 --> 00:20:11,361 that began to make me change my mind 449 00:20:11,361 --> 00:20:12,961 were things that I already knew, 450 00:20:12,961 --> 00:20:14,396 but it was like they hadn't 451 00:20:14,396 --> 00:20:17,985 had their full impact in my life. 452 00:20:17,985 --> 00:20:22,430 (Incomplete thought) 453 00:20:22,430 --> 00:20:29,197 The situation where things began to change, 454 00:20:29,197 --> 00:20:32,730 I was speaking through the Gospel of John 455 00:20:32,730 --> 00:20:35,821 in a series and I got to John 5 456 00:20:35,821 --> 00:20:39,270 and the verses about how Jesus 457 00:20:39,270 --> 00:20:40,875 was breaking the Sabbath 458 00:20:40,875 --> 00:20:42,835 and how He defended His position: 459 00:20:42,835 --> 00:20:45,412 "My Father works until now and I work." 460 00:20:45,412 --> 00:20:48,198 And in the course of that, 461 00:20:48,198 --> 00:20:51,956 I began teaching the people 462 00:20:51,956 --> 00:20:56,489 the different views and so on 463 00:20:56,489 --> 00:20:59,134 and it began to dawn on me 464 00:20:59,134 --> 00:21:04,201 that the early church specifically said 465 00:21:04,201 --> 00:21:07,010 we do not keep the Sabbath. 466 00:21:07,010 --> 00:21:11,259 And the fact was that they worshiped 467 00:21:11,259 --> 00:21:12,393 early in the morning - 468 00:21:12,393 --> 00:21:15,093 the Gentile converts worshiped early in the morning. 469 00:21:15,093 --> 00:21:16,533 And of course, when they said, 470 00:21:16,533 --> 00:21:18,988 we don't keep the Sabbath, they meant Saturday. 471 00:21:18,988 --> 00:21:20,657 We're not resting on Saturday. 472 00:21:20,657 --> 00:21:24,617 But the Lord's Day - they said The Lord's Day we give to joy. 473 00:21:24,617 --> 00:21:27,264 So they worshiped early in the morning, 474 00:21:27,264 --> 00:21:29,861 and then they went to work all day. 475 00:21:29,861 --> 00:21:32,639 And sometimes they met again at night. 476 00:21:32,639 --> 00:21:35,253 So what other commandment would there be 477 00:21:35,253 --> 00:21:37,950 where we would say, well, you know, 478 00:21:37,950 --> 00:21:40,213 a man's got to do what a man's got to do? 479 00:21:40,213 --> 00:21:43,105 You've got to break one of the ten 480 00:21:43,105 --> 00:21:45,839 greatest moral laws of God 481 00:21:45,839 --> 00:21:47,832 because otherwise you'll get in trouble 482 00:21:47,832 --> 00:21:50,035 with your boss or whatever. 483 00:21:50,035 --> 00:21:51,838 No one would ever say that, 484 00:21:51,838 --> 00:21:57,015 and yet they went to work on the Lord's Day. 485 00:21:57,015 --> 00:22:02,035 And so that began to dawn on me. 486 00:22:02,035 --> 00:22:04,801 John 5 there also where it says 487 00:22:04,801 --> 00:22:07,336 for this cause, the Jews were seeking 488 00:22:07,336 --> 00:22:09,432 all the more to kill Him 489 00:22:09,432 --> 00:22:12,345 because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, 490 00:22:12,345 --> 00:22:14,534 but was calling God His own Father 491 00:22:14,534 --> 00:22:16,960 making Himself equal with God. 492 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:18,811 One time I had a discussion 493 00:22:18,811 --> 00:22:21,212 with some Jehovah's Witnesses. 494 00:22:21,212 --> 00:22:24,019 And I brought up that passage. 495 00:22:24,019 --> 00:22:26,665 He was calling God His own Father, 496 00:22:26,665 --> 00:22:28,394 making Himself equal with God. 497 00:22:28,394 --> 00:22:31,907 They said well that was what the Jews said; 498 00:22:31,907 --> 00:22:35,915 that's not what He was actually doing. 499 00:22:35,915 --> 00:22:40,871 And I pointed out, no, this is what John said He was doing. 500 00:22:40,871 --> 00:22:42,812 That He was calling God His own Father, 501 00:22:42,812 --> 00:22:45,184 making Himself equal with God. 502 00:22:45,184 --> 00:22:48,083 And later it dawned on me 503 00:22:48,083 --> 00:22:50,484 that it was also John who was saying 504 00:22:50,484 --> 00:22:55,486 He was breaking the Sabbath. 505 00:22:55,486 --> 00:22:57,171 So what about this thing of Jesus 506 00:22:57,171 --> 00:22:58,748 breaking the Sabbath? 507 00:22:58,748 --> 00:23:01,240 That was very difficult for me to accept 508 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,231 because I always had in my mind 509 00:23:04,231 --> 00:23:07,540 that He kept the Mosaic law 510 00:23:07,540 --> 00:23:10,031 in the letter of the Mosaic law. 511 00:23:10,031 --> 00:23:13,807 And I began to see that actually He broke it a lot. 512 00:23:13,807 --> 00:23:16,278 But He broke it in a way - 513 00:23:16,278 --> 00:23:20,112 not of someone who is less than, 514 00:23:20,112 --> 00:23:24,433 but someone who is sailing over it; 515 00:23:24,433 --> 00:23:26,846 He's magisterial in His approach. 516 00:23:26,846 --> 00:23:30,378 So He's touching lepers. 517 00:23:30,378 --> 00:23:32,330 You're not supposed to touch a leper. 518 00:23:32,330 --> 00:23:36,750 He touches them and instead of Him becoming unclean, 519 00:23:36,750 --> 00:23:41,275 they become clean. 520 00:23:41,275 --> 00:23:44,961 And it's just glorious stuff. 521 00:23:44,961 --> 00:23:46,711 They come and they say 522 00:23:46,711 --> 00:23:49,434 why are Your disciples doing what's not lawful 523 00:23:49,434 --> 00:23:51,204 on the Sabbath? 524 00:23:51,204 --> 00:23:54,444 And He doesn't say it is lawful. 525 00:23:54,444 --> 00:23:56,982 He says don't you see the priests 526 00:23:56,982 --> 00:24:00,459 in the temple, they break the Sabbath 527 00:24:00,459 --> 00:24:02,768 in order to serve the temple. 528 00:24:02,768 --> 00:24:03,781 What's that mean? 529 00:24:03,781 --> 00:24:05,309 Well, they're in there working 530 00:24:05,309 --> 00:24:09,565 and slaving away on the Sabbath. 531 00:24:09,565 --> 00:24:11,025 But then He says, 532 00:24:11,025 --> 00:24:13,883 something greater than the temple is here. 533 00:24:13,883 --> 00:24:16,740 So He's saying My disciples 534 00:24:16,740 --> 00:24:19,845 are breaking the Sabbath in their service to Me, 535 00:24:19,845 --> 00:24:23,550 but I'm so much higher than the temple 536 00:24:23,550 --> 00:24:28,686 that the Sabbath takes subservience to Me. 537 00:24:28,686 --> 00:24:31,527 And then He goes and says the Son of Man 538 00:24:31,527 --> 00:24:33,805 is Lord even of the Sabbath. 539 00:24:33,805 --> 00:24:38,360 And so, He was breaking the Sabbath. 540 00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:40,016 They were breaking the Sabbath. 541 00:24:40,016 --> 00:24:43,060 But He was keeping on the highest level, 542 00:24:43,060 --> 00:24:45,071 He was keeping love to God 543 00:24:45,071 --> 00:24:46,431 and love to your fellow man. 544 00:24:46,431 --> 00:24:48,433 And those two commandments 545 00:24:48,433 --> 00:24:51,416 are sufficient to totally fulfill 546 00:24:51,416 --> 00:24:54,410 man's obligation to God. 547 00:24:54,410 --> 00:24:57,611 A certain scribe came to Jesus and said 548 00:24:57,611 --> 00:25:00,975 what must I do to have eternal life? 549 00:25:00,975 --> 00:25:02,736 If you want to lay out the highest, 550 00:25:02,736 --> 00:25:05,949 if you want to talk about moral law, 551 00:25:05,949 --> 00:25:08,847 and the highest standard imaginable, 552 00:25:08,847 --> 00:25:11,341 (Incomplete thought). 553 00:25:11,341 --> 00:25:14,792 Jesus said what do you read in the law? 554 00:25:14,792 --> 00:25:17,421 What's it say? How does it read to you? 555 00:25:17,421 --> 00:25:20,746 And this guy must have been brilliant. 556 00:25:20,746 --> 00:25:22,161 He said well, two things - 557 00:25:22,161 --> 00:25:24,785 love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, 558 00:25:24,785 --> 00:25:27,240 and love your neighbor as yourself. 559 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:28,812 And Jesus didn't say, well, no, 560 00:25:28,812 --> 00:25:30,247 there's a lot more than that. 561 00:25:30,247 --> 00:25:33,769 You've got 613 commandments. 562 00:25:33,769 --> 00:25:36,663 He said you've answered correctly. 563 00:25:36,663 --> 00:25:39,707 You do those two things 564 00:25:39,707 --> 00:25:41,668 and you'll have eternal life. 565 00:25:41,668 --> 00:25:43,210 "Do this and you shall live," 566 00:25:43,210 --> 00:25:45,003 and He quotes from Leviticus. 567 00:25:45,003 --> 00:25:48,981 And that's what Jesus did. 568 00:25:48,981 --> 00:25:52,018 And that's how He earned, 569 00:25:52,018 --> 00:25:55,679 merited righteousness for us. 570 00:25:55,679 --> 00:25:58,013 And Romans 5, we receive 571 00:25:58,013 --> 00:25:59,878 the gift of righteousness. 572 00:25:59,878 --> 00:26:01,769 It's His righteousness. 573 00:26:01,769 --> 00:26:05,069 Our sins are imputed to Him. 574 00:26:05,069 --> 00:26:08,228 He gets the curse that we deserve. 575 00:26:08,228 --> 00:26:09,599 His righteousness, 576 00:26:09,599 --> 00:26:11,493 His perfect fulfillment of the law, 577 00:26:11,493 --> 00:26:14,976 His merit is imputed to us 578 00:26:14,976 --> 00:26:18,718 and we get the blessing that He deserves. 579 00:26:18,718 --> 00:26:22,558 I kind of like to think of it like a time card. 580 00:26:22,558 --> 00:26:24,836 You know Paul says not having 581 00:26:24,836 --> 00:26:27,393 a righteousness of my own derived from the law. 582 00:26:27,393 --> 00:26:31,856 Well, there's the idea that if you keep the law, 583 00:26:31,856 --> 00:26:34,444 it will be righteousness unto you, 584 00:26:34,444 --> 00:26:37,885 and you'll live because of that righteousness. 585 00:26:37,885 --> 00:26:39,919 In other words, you fulfill it perfectly, 586 00:26:39,919 --> 00:26:41,417 you get its reward. 587 00:26:41,417 --> 00:26:43,862 He that does those things shall live. 588 00:26:43,862 --> 00:26:47,514 And Paul says I don't have any righteousness of my own. 589 00:26:47,514 --> 00:26:49,406 But Christ did have righteousness. 590 00:26:49,406 --> 00:26:51,913 He perfectly fulfilled everything. 591 00:26:51,913 --> 00:26:54,442 And so He made Him to be sin for us 592 00:26:54,442 --> 00:26:56,352 who knew no sin, 593 00:26:56,352 --> 00:27:01,138 that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. 594 00:27:01,138 --> 00:27:04,082 And when you think of a time card, 595 00:27:04,082 --> 00:27:05,740 you go in every day, 596 00:27:05,740 --> 00:27:06,888 you punch your card. 597 00:27:06,888 --> 00:27:09,235 At the end of the week, you've got this card 598 00:27:09,235 --> 00:27:11,198 that has all these times on there. 599 00:27:11,198 --> 00:27:12,439 You fulfill your time. 600 00:27:12,439 --> 00:27:13,499 You put in your time. 601 00:27:13,499 --> 00:27:16,722 You're entitled to a reward. 602 00:27:16,722 --> 00:27:19,808 And that's what Christ gives us is His time card; 603 00:27:19,808 --> 00:27:23,384 His righteousness that He's earned; 604 00:27:23,384 --> 00:27:28,103 that title to eternal life. 605 00:27:28,103 --> 00:27:31,016 Question: So as you study John 5 and these things, 606 00:27:31,016 --> 00:27:33,880 is that when your position started to change? 607 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:35,814 Charles: Yeah, what happened was 608 00:27:35,814 --> 00:27:38,390 I actually left that series and I've told people 609 00:27:38,390 --> 00:27:41,083 that I didn't come back until a year later, 610 00:27:41,083 --> 00:27:43,774 but it was actually over two years later. 611 00:27:43,774 --> 00:27:45,607 And I came back to John 5 612 00:27:45,607 --> 00:27:49,170 a couple years later and took up again. 613 00:27:49,170 --> 00:27:52,839 And I had already prepared a standard message 614 00:27:52,839 --> 00:27:55,134 on the Sabbath. 615 00:27:55,134 --> 00:27:57,833 It was already ready, and I couldn't give it. 616 00:27:57,833 --> 00:27:59,153 And so the next morning, 617 00:27:59,153 --> 00:28:00,620 I don't remember what I gave, 618 00:28:00,620 --> 00:28:03,539 but I gave something entirely different. 619 00:28:03,539 --> 00:28:05,805 And another thing, I began to realize 620 00:28:05,805 --> 00:28:10,223 that all of my studies - 621 00:28:10,223 --> 00:28:12,697 all the theology and everything 622 00:28:12,697 --> 00:28:14,139 that I had read 623 00:28:14,139 --> 00:28:17,387 was from a couple centuries of church history. 624 00:28:17,387 --> 00:28:21,955 And I'm sometimes asked, 625 00:28:21,955 --> 00:28:24,829 this new covenant theology, 626 00:28:24,829 --> 00:28:28,833 it's a new thing and that's dangerous, 627 00:28:28,833 --> 00:28:30,904 which I agree with totally. 628 00:28:30,904 --> 00:28:32,856 But my response to that is that 629 00:28:32,856 --> 00:28:35,087 covenant theology is the new thing 630 00:28:35,087 --> 00:28:36,844 in terms of church history. 631 00:28:36,844 --> 00:28:39,669 You look at that and John Murray 632 00:28:39,669 --> 00:28:42,743 has a history of covenant theology 633 00:28:42,743 --> 00:28:49,147 and goes into where it really began to be developed. 634 00:28:49,147 --> 00:28:52,284 It's not the idea that covenant theology 635 00:28:52,284 --> 00:28:55,383 is some thing that's existed since the 1st century. 636 00:28:55,383 --> 00:28:57,644 A lot of people have that in their mind 637 00:28:57,644 --> 00:28:59,573 because that's all they've ever heard. 638 00:28:59,573 --> 00:29:01,747 And I had the standard view. 639 00:29:01,747 --> 00:29:04,433 I had those books about how 640 00:29:04,433 --> 00:29:06,467 the day has been changed 641 00:29:06,467 --> 00:29:08,447 and the Sabbath has been preserved 642 00:29:08,447 --> 00:29:11,603 and all of those things to try to explain 643 00:29:11,603 --> 00:29:15,640 how you could have the 4th commandment shift over. 644 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,042 The early church, in church history, 645 00:29:20,042 --> 00:29:22,724 they never viewed the Lord's Day 646 00:29:22,724 --> 00:29:25,697 as fulfilling the 4th commandment 647 00:29:25,697 --> 00:29:29,082 until much later, like 700 years later. 648 00:29:29,082 --> 00:29:36,642 And so, the idea that we're under 649 00:29:36,642 --> 00:29:38,067 the Ten Commandments 650 00:29:38,067 --> 00:29:39,749 and the Ten Commandments - 651 00:29:39,749 --> 00:29:42,564 the 4th commandment we fulfill on the Lord's Day, 652 00:29:42,564 --> 00:29:46,536 even when they began resting on the Lord's Day, 653 00:29:46,536 --> 00:29:49,846 when Constantine made it a legal holiday, 654 00:29:49,846 --> 00:29:53,891 he called it the Venerable Day of the Sun 655 00:29:53,891 --> 00:29:55,587 (S, U, N.) 656 00:29:55,587 --> 00:29:57,886 And made that a legal holiday 657 00:29:57,886 --> 00:29:59,551 when Christianity became 658 00:29:59,551 --> 00:30:02,619 the official religion of the Roman Empire. 659 00:30:02,619 --> 00:30:06,442 And so they began having the day off, 660 00:30:06,442 --> 00:30:09,675 but even then, it wasn't thought of 661 00:30:09,675 --> 00:30:13,109 as we're fulfilling the 4th commandment. 662 00:30:13,109 --> 00:30:15,045 Those are things that came later. 663 00:30:15,045 --> 00:30:17,089 Question: When you changed your views, 664 00:30:17,089 --> 00:30:19,904 did anyone cut their relationship off with you? 665 00:30:19,904 --> 00:30:22,712 Charles: No, not at that time. 666 00:30:22,712 --> 00:30:25,039 A lot of these things were things 667 00:30:25,039 --> 00:30:29,197 that under the surface bother you 668 00:30:29,197 --> 00:30:32,887 as to how does this fit? How does that fit? 669 00:30:32,887 --> 00:30:34,263 But it never came down 670 00:30:34,263 --> 00:30:38,946 with real weight on me where I really saw 671 00:30:38,946 --> 00:30:42,654 that this is so inconsistent. 672 00:30:42,654 --> 00:30:49,331 It's like it kind of fell apart. 673 00:30:49,331 --> 00:30:50,920 Question: Did you at any point 674 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,721 have a shift to where the Scriptures 675 00:30:53,721 --> 00:30:56,281 had a greater emphasis on your life 676 00:30:56,281 --> 00:31:00,655 in comparison with church history and confessions? 677 00:31:00,655 --> 00:31:02,629 Charles: I never was affected a lot 678 00:31:02,629 --> 00:31:04,683 by the confessions 679 00:31:04,683 --> 00:31:09,707 as much as I was affected by men 680 00:31:09,707 --> 00:31:12,205 that I admired theologically. 681 00:31:12,205 --> 00:31:17,333 And covenant theology has a lot 682 00:31:17,333 --> 00:31:20,411 of really good things. 683 00:31:20,411 --> 00:31:22,470 One of the dangers - 684 00:31:22,470 --> 00:31:24,210 and I don't want to identify myself 685 00:31:24,210 --> 00:31:25,999 with new covenant theology either, 686 00:31:25,999 --> 00:31:29,374 because I feel like there's extremes 687 00:31:29,374 --> 00:31:31,473 and errors - I may talk about that. 688 00:31:31,473 --> 00:31:33,154 James: That would be good to hear 689 00:31:33,154 --> 00:31:36,585 what some of those errors are. 690 00:31:36,585 --> 00:31:41,294 Charles: Well, covenant theology 691 00:31:41,294 --> 00:31:44,772 is founded on the idea that there are 692 00:31:44,772 --> 00:31:46,358 two basic covenants: 693 00:31:46,358 --> 00:31:49,046 a covenant of works and a covenant of grace. 694 00:31:49,046 --> 00:31:51,056 And the covenant of grace 695 00:31:51,056 --> 00:31:56,979 is this super-historical or a-historical 696 00:31:56,979 --> 00:32:00,868 thing that unifies this overarching 697 00:32:00,868 --> 00:32:02,171 covenant of grace. 698 00:32:02,171 --> 00:32:05,529 The Bible never talks about "the covenant of grace." 699 00:32:05,529 --> 00:32:07,514 And when the Bible talks about covenants, 700 00:32:07,514 --> 00:32:09,834 it's covenants that are made in time 701 00:32:09,834 --> 00:32:11,633 with specific people. 702 00:32:11,633 --> 00:32:15,076 And so this is a theological construction. 703 00:32:15,076 --> 00:32:16,919 And what happens when you bring in 704 00:32:16,919 --> 00:32:18,548 "the covenant of grace," - 705 00:32:18,548 --> 00:32:20,016 the theological construction - 706 00:32:20,016 --> 00:32:23,467 then you say, well, the Mosaic covenant 707 00:32:23,467 --> 00:32:25,906 was one administration 708 00:32:25,906 --> 00:32:28,114 of the covenant of grace. 709 00:32:28,114 --> 00:32:31,354 The new covenant is a different administration 710 00:32:31,354 --> 00:32:33,073 of the covenant of grace. 711 00:32:33,073 --> 00:32:35,102 And so you end up saying 712 00:32:35,102 --> 00:32:39,202 that the Mosaic covenant was a gracious covenant 713 00:32:39,202 --> 00:32:43,876 and basically similar to the new covenant. 714 00:32:43,876 --> 00:32:46,314 Rather than, contrasting. 715 00:32:46,314 --> 00:32:48,555 Paul says the opposite. 716 00:32:48,555 --> 00:32:53,044 He says the law was not of faith. 717 00:32:53,044 --> 00:32:57,122 He says the law has to do with works. 718 00:32:57,122 --> 00:33:00,483 The principle of law is: do this and you shall live. 719 00:33:00,483 --> 00:33:04,706 And so the Mosaic covenant was very gracious 720 00:33:04,706 --> 00:33:06,628 in that it had a gracious purpose 721 00:33:06,628 --> 00:33:08,437 and it was part of God bringing them 722 00:33:08,437 --> 00:33:10,553 toward the Messiah. 723 00:33:10,553 --> 00:33:14,724 But to say that the covenant itself was gracious misrepresents. 724 00:33:14,724 --> 00:33:18,981 It's not at all what Paul said about it. 725 00:33:18,981 --> 00:33:22,290 The Mosaic covenant represents 726 00:33:22,290 --> 00:33:24,762 this principle of blessing and curse. 727 00:33:24,762 --> 00:33:27,166 You have those there in Deuteronomy. 728 00:33:27,166 --> 00:33:28,893 Verse after verse after verse 729 00:33:28,893 --> 00:33:30,212 about all these curses: 730 00:33:30,212 --> 00:33:33,342 If you don't do... If you disobey... 731 00:33:33,342 --> 00:33:35,526 Curse, cursed, cursed, cursed. 732 00:33:35,526 --> 00:33:38,135 If you obey, blessed, blessed, blessed. 733 00:33:38,135 --> 00:33:42,238 And those things had to do with temporal blessings - 734 00:33:42,238 --> 00:33:43,819 life in the land, 735 00:33:43,819 --> 00:33:46,807 living along in the land and being blessed, 736 00:33:46,807 --> 00:33:49,017 having rain from heaven and all those things, 737 00:33:49,017 --> 00:33:51,392 victory over your enemies. 738 00:33:51,392 --> 00:33:55,595 But that represented a legal principle 739 00:33:55,595 --> 00:33:58,646 that is true in the realm of eternal life. 740 00:33:58,646 --> 00:34:01,271 And the way we know that for sure 741 00:34:01,271 --> 00:34:05,467 is whenever they ask Jesus 742 00:34:05,467 --> 00:34:10,546 what must I do to have eternal life? 743 00:34:10,546 --> 00:34:13,375 He went back and talked about things 744 00:34:13,375 --> 00:34:15,155 out of the law. 745 00:34:15,155 --> 00:34:18,772 And those were representative, 746 00:34:18,772 --> 00:34:21,713 like loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength; 747 00:34:21,713 --> 00:34:23,362 loving your neighbor as yourself. 748 00:34:23,362 --> 00:34:26,223 That was a principle there that if you did that, 749 00:34:26,223 --> 00:34:27,783 you would have eternal life. 750 00:34:27,783 --> 00:34:29,381 Do this and you will live. 751 00:34:29,381 --> 00:34:31,372 And Paul does the same thing. 752 00:34:31,372 --> 00:34:33,309 He talks about this curse of the law. 753 00:34:33,309 --> 00:34:35,682 Well, the curse of the law 754 00:34:35,682 --> 00:34:38,709 ultimately it was not being kicked out of the land, 755 00:34:38,709 --> 00:34:42,830 but it was eternal punishment. 756 00:34:42,830 --> 00:34:50,345 And Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. 757 00:34:50,345 --> 00:34:54,949 The Mosaic covenant is a legal covenant of works. 758 00:34:54,949 --> 00:34:58,698 Initially of works that they could do 759 00:34:58,698 --> 00:35:01,221 to remain in the land or not do. 760 00:35:01,221 --> 00:35:05,035 But then representing a deeper meaning 761 00:35:05,035 --> 00:35:10,682 of works in terms of meriting eternal life or not, 762 00:35:10,682 --> 00:35:14,552 and of course, no one ever did that for a moment. 763 00:35:14,552 --> 00:35:19,270 Except for the Lord Jesus Christ. 764 00:35:19,270 --> 00:35:21,572 That's covenant theology. 765 00:35:21,572 --> 00:35:22,900 Let me say a little more. 766 00:35:22,900 --> 00:35:24,809 (Incomplete thought) 767 00:35:24,809 --> 00:35:26,736 Covenant theology makes 768 00:35:26,736 --> 00:35:28,880 too little of a discontinuity 769 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,412 between the Old and New Testaments. 770 00:35:31,412 --> 00:35:33,744 It sees too little of a shift. 771 00:35:33,744 --> 00:35:38,024 And so you have men like B.B. Warfield 772 00:35:38,024 --> 00:35:41,322 saying God put children in the church 773 00:35:41,322 --> 00:35:42,968 in the days of Abraham. 774 00:35:42,968 --> 00:35:46,354 It's a total anachronism - it's from back here. 775 00:35:46,354 --> 00:35:49,362 And a lot of covenant people 776 00:35:49,362 --> 00:35:51,358 view Old Testament Israel 777 00:35:51,358 --> 00:35:54,265 as basically the same as the church. 778 00:35:54,265 --> 00:35:56,893 And you have John Stott getting up 779 00:35:56,893 --> 00:36:04,500 and rebuking Martyn Lloyd-Jones in 1966. 780 00:36:04,500 --> 00:36:08,926 Rebuking him basically. 781 00:36:08,926 --> 00:36:12,146 Lloyd-Jones was calling people 782 00:36:12,146 --> 00:36:15,237 to come out of these apostate churches. 783 00:36:15,237 --> 00:36:19,142 And he said, "Dr. Lloyd-Jones, 784 00:36:19,142 --> 00:36:22,747 both history and the Bible are against you. 785 00:36:22,747 --> 00:36:25,786 The remnant is not outside the church. 786 00:36:25,786 --> 00:36:27,695 The remnant is within the church." 787 00:36:27,695 --> 00:36:30,462 In other words, this remnant is believers. 788 00:36:30,462 --> 00:36:33,695 And "the church" is this big apostate mass 789 00:36:33,695 --> 00:36:36,007 like Anglicanism is 790 00:36:36,007 --> 00:36:38,148 where you can have an archbishop 791 00:36:38,148 --> 00:36:41,730 that denies the Bible and the virgin birth. 792 00:36:41,730 --> 00:36:45,581 So that's what he views as the church. 793 00:36:45,581 --> 00:36:47,668 And the remnant is inside - 794 00:36:47,668 --> 00:36:49,143 this little group of believers 795 00:36:49,143 --> 00:36:51,507 and they're supposed to stay in. 796 00:36:51,507 --> 00:36:53,486 Well, of course, the logic of that 797 00:36:53,486 --> 00:36:56,941 is that the reformation should never have happened. 798 00:36:56,941 --> 00:36:59,079 They should have stayed in the Catholic - 799 00:36:59,079 --> 00:37:01,844 "the church" - the Catholic church. 800 00:37:01,844 --> 00:37:04,137 And the remnant should have stayed inside there. 801 00:37:04,137 --> 00:37:06,046 And lo and behold, that's what happened. 802 00:37:06,046 --> 00:37:09,148 There was this shift and those men that believed that way 803 00:37:09,148 --> 00:37:13,399 there was a shift back towards Catholicism, 804 00:37:13,399 --> 00:37:19,866 both by John Stott and by J.I. Packer. 805 00:37:19,866 --> 00:37:22,978 So, in covenant theology, 806 00:37:22,978 --> 00:37:26,854 there tends to be this too little distinction 807 00:37:26,854 --> 00:37:28,844 made between the two covenants 808 00:37:28,844 --> 00:37:30,696 and too little of a contrast 809 00:37:30,696 --> 00:37:34,235 and too little of a break. 810 00:37:34,235 --> 00:37:37,233 In dispensationalism, it's the opposite problem. 811 00:37:37,233 --> 00:37:39,339 There's too many breaks 812 00:37:39,339 --> 00:37:41,553 and there's no continuity. 813 00:37:41,553 --> 00:37:45,133 And in the old dispensationalism, 814 00:37:45,133 --> 00:37:48,666 like with the original Scofield Bible, 815 00:37:48,666 --> 00:37:50,542 basically almost taught that they were 816 00:37:50,542 --> 00:37:53,501 saved by lawkeeping in the old covenant. 817 00:37:53,501 --> 00:37:59,205 And many wrong views there. 818 00:37:59,205 --> 00:38:04,068 Not enough continuity particularly between 819 00:38:04,068 --> 00:38:07,406 true believers in the Old and in the New. 820 00:38:07,406 --> 00:38:10,217 New covenant theology 821 00:38:10,217 --> 00:38:12,973 is closer to the truth on all of it, 822 00:38:12,973 --> 00:38:16,021 and of course, that's what my position 823 00:38:16,021 --> 00:38:18,259 would be categorized as. 824 00:38:18,259 --> 00:38:20,550 But the problems with it 825 00:38:20,550 --> 00:38:22,890 if you just identify yourself with that, 826 00:38:22,890 --> 00:38:24,274 there's a lot of things 827 00:38:24,274 --> 00:38:28,166 that I feel like sometimes they tend to 828 00:38:28,166 --> 00:38:30,748 react too much to covenant theology. 829 00:38:30,748 --> 00:38:34,074 There's many wonderful things in covenant theology 830 00:38:34,074 --> 00:38:35,520 and wonderful theologians 831 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:41,976 that have taken those positions. 832 00:38:41,976 --> 00:38:48,079 If we study through in our men's theology time 833 00:38:48,079 --> 00:38:49,660 on Saturday mornings, 834 00:38:49,660 --> 00:38:52,103 if we study through a systematic theology, 835 00:38:52,103 --> 00:38:54,625 we're going to get one of these guys 836 00:38:54,625 --> 00:38:57,414 that is a really good covenant theologian 837 00:38:57,414 --> 00:38:59,161 because they're just better. 838 00:38:59,161 --> 00:39:01,051 But that doesn't make them infallible. 839 00:39:01,051 --> 00:39:02,354 And there are certain areas 840 00:39:02,354 --> 00:39:05,232 where you get into certain areas of their teaching, 841 00:39:05,232 --> 00:39:07,095 and they're floundering 842 00:39:07,095 --> 00:39:10,520 and pulling things out of the air. 843 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,713 But other areas, they're very, very good. 844 00:39:13,713 --> 00:39:17,278 It's possible to overreact. 845 00:39:17,278 --> 00:39:19,102 That's the biggest danger I would say 846 00:39:19,102 --> 00:39:24,153 about new covenant theology. 847 00:39:24,153 --> 00:39:25,837 All of these things, 848 00:39:25,837 --> 00:39:28,967 we say that we're always reforming, 849 00:39:28,967 --> 00:39:32,202 but as long as you don't change anything. 850 00:39:32,202 --> 00:39:34,356 You're always reforming as long as you 851 00:39:34,356 --> 00:39:37,089 stick to whatever's accepted. 852 00:39:37,089 --> 00:39:39,851 And there's always a danger 853 00:39:39,851 --> 00:39:44,784 in trying to come up with a better definition of something 854 00:39:44,784 --> 00:39:47,231 or a little closer to the Bible. 855 00:39:47,231 --> 00:39:51,202 There's always danger there. 856 00:39:51,202 --> 00:39:52,624 That's what happened when Luther 857 00:39:52,624 --> 00:39:55,101 stood before the emperor. 858 00:39:55,101 --> 00:39:57,026 And the emperor said, 859 00:39:57,026 --> 00:40:01,211 "a thousand years of church history can not be wrong 860 00:40:01,211 --> 00:40:03,439 and one monk be right." 861 00:40:03,439 --> 00:40:05,295 Well, he had a great argument. 862 00:40:05,295 --> 00:40:07,560 The only trouble is he was wrong. 863 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,637 A thousand years of church history was wrong. 864 00:40:10,637 --> 00:40:13,624 He had a wrong view of the church. 865 00:40:13,624 --> 00:40:15,909 That was the problem. 866 00:40:15,909 --> 00:40:17,707 Question: So in regards to those 867 00:40:17,707 --> 00:40:20,311 who would label themselves as new covenant theology, 868 00:40:20,311 --> 00:40:23,051 where do they take things too far to an extreme? 869 00:40:23,051 --> 00:40:24,786 Charles: Well, one example is 870 00:40:24,786 --> 00:40:27,815 that some have denied the idea 871 00:40:27,815 --> 00:40:30,873 of Christ's righteousness being imputed. 872 00:40:30,873 --> 00:40:36,343 Some have denied that Christ merited 873 00:40:36,343 --> 00:40:39,980 eternal life by His positive obedience 874 00:40:39,980 --> 00:40:41,687 to God's law. 875 00:40:41,687 --> 00:40:44,176 They say that the Bible only talks about 876 00:40:44,176 --> 00:40:48,353 the death of Christ and not about His life 877 00:40:48,353 --> 00:40:52,454 and not about what's called His active obedience. 878 00:40:52,454 --> 00:40:55,768 I think those things go too far. 879 00:40:55,768 --> 00:40:57,763 In that area for example, 880 00:40:57,763 --> 00:41:02,021 we have Paul specifically talks about 881 00:41:02,021 --> 00:41:05,424 through the obedience of the one, the many are made righteous. 882 00:41:05,424 --> 00:41:06,894 And I think he's talking about 883 00:41:06,894 --> 00:41:10,572 more than just the cross. 884 00:41:10,572 --> 00:41:13,608 It's this whole righteous life 885 00:41:13,608 --> 00:41:15,268 viewed as a unit. 886 00:41:15,268 --> 00:41:18,635 And it says that we receive 887 00:41:18,635 --> 00:41:20,573 abundance of grace 888 00:41:20,573 --> 00:41:22,928 and of the gift of righteousness. 889 00:41:22,928 --> 00:41:25,606 That's very clear there. 890 00:41:25,606 --> 00:41:29,780 We receive a gift of righteousness. 891 00:41:29,780 --> 00:41:31,165 That would be one area. 892 00:41:31,165 --> 00:41:33,187 Question: If they hold to that position, 893 00:41:33,187 --> 00:41:34,493 what does that lead to? 894 00:41:34,493 --> 00:41:35,767 Charles: Well, if you lose 895 00:41:35,767 --> 00:41:37,317 the imputation of righteousness, 896 00:41:37,317 --> 00:41:38,800 to me, that's a very big thing. 897 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,813 If you lose the fact that we're saved 898 00:41:41,813 --> 00:41:44,771 not only by Christ's death, 899 00:41:44,771 --> 00:41:51,306 but by His obedience. 900 00:41:51,306 --> 00:41:56,111 I had one dear brother say to me 901 00:41:56,111 --> 00:41:58,752 Jesus could have died when He was an infant 902 00:41:58,752 --> 00:42:01,294 and it would have put away our sins. 903 00:42:01,294 --> 00:42:05,164 I don't think we see that at all in Scripture. 904 00:42:05,164 --> 00:42:09,044 Righteousness and testedness 905 00:42:09,044 --> 00:42:11,462 is something that cannot be concreated, 906 00:42:11,462 --> 00:42:14,391 that is, you cannot be created with testedness. 907 00:42:14,391 --> 00:42:16,114 That'd be like faking it. 908 00:42:16,114 --> 00:42:20,734 That's like God creating a tree 909 00:42:20,734 --> 00:42:26,296 that's already old and has rings. 910 00:42:26,296 --> 00:42:29,664 And it has a fake history. 911 00:42:29,664 --> 00:42:32,160 He had to pass through, He had to go through; 912 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:36,323 He learned obedience through the things which He suffered. 913 00:42:36,323 --> 00:42:38,760 For futher study on this topic, 914 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:40,806 you can listen to Charles' series 915 00:42:40,806 --> 00:42:42,897 on the Law of Christ.